I see "leavers" are still regarded is "stupid and ignorant" by the high-flying, deep thinking academics here who voted "stay".

Coming from you? How often are you insulting people who believe in PC or the left in general? Get off that high horse before it collapses under the weight of your hypocrisy. Also good for you for trying to be PC :clap1:

I've never denied the masses their opinions, I've simply commented on them. You and others, however, do constantly try to shut down opinions you don't like be pretending to be offended and making out that anything you dislike is a rule break.

I haven't called any member names or questioned their intelligence. Again, like Jaxie, you are trying to invalidate my opinion by making out that I'm insulting members when I've not simply because you can't handle opinions you disagree with.

Not all leavers, just the majority that voted because they believed that a Bus that told them the NHS would get millions more in funding or because a bunch of politicians selling snake oil told them what they wanted to hear or simply because they voted to leave because that's what other people they know did.

If you vote in an election or a referendum without truly understanding the issue then you are voting in ignorance and the majority of all voters are largely ignorant.

Of course that distinction doesn't matter, any reason to act offended, huh?

:laugh: You said it much more eloquently than I did.

This is the problem, you believe that everyone who voted leave thinks exactly the same as you and just so happens to be informed on all the issues. You might be informed but the majority of all voters are not and to act like they are is to live in denial.

You just want an excuse to be offended at what someone you dislike has said although common sense and basic reading skills would dictate that what I said doesn't apply to anyone informed of the issues surrounding the vote.

Of course I don't believe that everyone voted for the same reason I did. I would also never presume to state most of them voted because they didn't know what they were voting for. That's just you. :shrug: I wouldn't dream of assuming I know why anyone voted the way they did. I certainly wouldn't accuse them of being thick or ignorant if they chose differently.

Why would I dislike you? I don't know you. I do dislike the sweeping arrogant generalisations which are based on no facts at all when you can have no idea what the majority of people thought or knew when they voted. Again with the veiled insults. Now you are accusing me of having no basic reading skills or common sense. How is that not offensive? What is wrong with you? You keep digging the hole.

It isn't me that can't handle opposing opinions. No matter what you say people will form their own opinions regardless of yours.

You can tell by the tactics and points that campaigns use and focus on which are most effective. The leave campaign didn't really pick up pace until Immigration and the NHS lie became the cornerstones of the Leave argument. It had the most traction with the public as a whole, if they didn't they wouldn't have become the focal points of the vote.

Same with the latest elections, May was dependant on slogans ('Strong and Stable', 'No deal is better than a bad deal') and if they weren't effective in generating a positive response from voters then they wouldn't have relied on them so heavily.

You accuse me of arrogance (hypocritical considering how offended you act later on in the paragraph) yet my statements are based on looking at the tactics used by campaigns and simple knowledge of the public as a whole. You can pretend that everyone is informed and know exactly what they are voting for all you like but it won't reflect the reality that most voters won't ever research what they are voting on and don't really understand WHAT they are voting for which is why shallow tactics like slogans and headlines are so effective because people don't care enough to look into it any deeper than that.

The rest is just you looking for reasons to be offended to discount what I said instead of forming an actual argument against it so I shan't bother responding to it.

A mantra that I've repeated for years on this section is 'Everyone is entitled to an opinion and everyone else is entitled to an opinion on that opinion.' Deflecting won't change that, Brillo.

Yep but I'll add: that was personal debt issues and not government debt issues. If Labour had put more restrictions on the banks instead of allowing carte blanche lending like the rest of the Western world, the bailouts would still of happened but would of been considerably lower.

Absolutely! Negative growth shocks come about from two things 1) lack of spending in the right areas with QE and 2) Savings (austerity) create growth shocks because its money being taken out of the economy and when you keep removing vast sums of money from the economy it raises the deficit but doesn’t allow growth and only growth can balance out that deficit through taxation. What we have been witnessing for the last decade is a model that simply doesn't work.

I'll apologize in advance for snatching this little gem that should be written in broad letters across every billboard in the country! Though I don't think comparisons can be drawn and here's why.

A government with its own currency (like ours) cannot have a personal debt crisis like the ex-student who owes on his loan because the government creates its own currency as and when required.

Yep... spending more than pays for itself and cuts impose more harm than the initial sum supposedly saved.

You just did respond. It's kind of amusing how you accuse others of having no argument and then base your post on what you know about how the nation thinks.

You are assuming, once again, that people voted based solely on the campaign. The reality is that not everyone votes based on campaigns. For instance there are people who will vote Labour or Tory every time regardless so the campaign at each election means very little to them.

Your simple knowledge of the public as a whole is some sort of telepathy skills?

Hypocrasy accusations? Pot, kettle. :shrug:

Don't keep replying Dezzy, I have better things to do with my time. :wavey:

As usual that works both ways. I'm not deflecting anything.

But you're the one getting all ancie when people comment on your opinions if you don't like the comments - accusing people of having it in for you because they don't like you or of trying to undermine you. :shrug: Waste of time. You only hear what you want to hear. Your mindset is set in stone just as you accuse others of.

Ah, look who's trying to repress opposing opinions. I'll share my opinion because i'm ****ing entitled to do so whether you like it or not.

To think that the majority of voters didn't vote based on the campaign is foolishness. It's one regard in which the election and the Referendum are different because some people will typically always vote for their preferred parties but there was no historic precedent when it came to the referendum. Most parties were divided over it.

Again you can deny it all you want but immigration and the NHS lie WAS the centrepiece of the whole Leave campaign and it was what swayed the public in the favour of Leave when Remain had the poll numbers for months leading up to the vote. You can make all the low jibes you want to hide the fact that you can't argue against what I'm saying but it won't make what I'm saying any less true.

A majority of voters, like always, did not understand what they were voting for. Scream and rage all you want, it doesn't change that.

Ah, a nothing response then.

Are you suffering from memory loss, Brillo?

I stated my opinion and it was Jaxie that couldn't handle it and you backed her up. Everything you accuse me off, you are guilty of and more but you lack the self awareness to see it.

I stated my opinion that the public were largely ignorant and you and Jaxie went on the attack since you couldn't handle my opinion because you try to shut down any opinion that's different from your own.

Why is LSE giving promos to buzzfeed not the financial times or another broadsheet?

Curiouser and curiouser... :/

The whole 'study' seems to just confirm that most people are still very confused about the facts and unaware of the real implications of Brexit.

There was only 3000 people involved in this too which really isn't enough to come to any clear conclusion, especially when we don't know who the people were and how they came to take part in this.

The fact that leavers are so terrified of any possibility of another referendum says a lot about how the first result was obtained. They just use the old ''not respecting democracy blah'' line when, if they were really interested in real democracy then they'd welcome avote now that people are at least slightly more aware of the facts, or at least those whopping lies used to convince many of the need to leave the EU have been well and truly debunked.

We can also back out of Brexit at any point before it's been completed, which will be years.............if it even happens at all.

Your respect for democracy, or rather lack of it when it suits, is clear, although no doubt if the referendum had gone your way and the leavers were wanting a second referendum it would be a different story.

Maybe from now on we should all call for a second vote every time we elect a new priminister if we don't like the result. Or maybe a third would be fairer - best of three and all that. Why stop there - we could just keep demanding repeat votes to kingdom come until we get our own way, but then the other side would demand another ...

You are living in cloud cuckoo land - it won't happen. There would be a public uproar not to mention the future implications for public votes. We were informed - if you and whoever else didn't bother to listen - lesson learned which is clearly a bitter pill to swallow.

Speaking of buying into lies - the subject of clearing student debt comes to mind - you know those ones that did get all those youngsters, who didn't bother to vote in the referendum, to finally listen. Too little too late.

You're just making it up as you go along! :laugh:

This is SUCH an important subject where people were at best poorly informed and, at worst, repeatedly lied to on key issues that helped them decide how they were going to vote.

Once this has happened there'll be no going back on it so, in the true spirit of democracy, why would you have a problem with a better informed UK population making sure they are doing the right thing before taking such a MASSIVE step that, if it doesn't go well, could destroy our economy completely ? Why wouldn't you want to be sure and give people the chance, now that they know that some major selling points used by the leave side were nothing more than lies made up to make their case look stronger ? Denying people that opportunity would be completely un-democratic. Or would you rather go with a result that could have come about through dishonest means just because those lies got you the result you wanted ?

The true spirit of democracy has already occurred. You can try to manipulate the word all you like - changes nothing, and will change nothing. Very weak attempt at emotional blackmail, but the level of. desperation is painfully clear.

Those 'lies' had nothing to do with my vote. Most probably made up their minds long before. You are making a lot of assumptions out of desperation.

You clearly don't understand what 'Democracy' is then!

I know people who voted leave because of the lies spread by the leave campaign that £350 million a week would go directly into the NHS instead of to the EU.

You do realize that at any point up until Brexit is completed we can change our minds do you ? It's part of the terms and there's a very good chance, with the increasing uncertainty and nervousness that's building, that Brexit won't even happen.

Don't you care about the economy of our Country ?
I have nothingto personally gain by Brexit not happening but i don't want to see our Country ruined.

Welcome back Brillopad. I've missed you.:wavey:

Thank you Jenny!

That comes down to viewpoint and who you believe. I have seen as many expert positive views of the effects of leaving the EU as I have the negative views (excluding all the obvious scaremongering).

The negative views are not proven facts - they are opinions depending on who has to gain from what. Self-interest is always top of the priorities of many.

Like talking to a brick wall..............that's about to fall down.

You are peddling a fantasy based on hot air.
Eventually you'll see the world isn't going to end when we leave the EU.
You are the one who doesn't understand democracy. It is the rule of majority, in this case the majority who voted leave. It isn't the rule of let's keep voting until I get my way. That's dictatorship.

The ''fantasy based on hot air'' was that we'd save £350 million a week that would go directly back into the NHS when we left the EU. It was actually a full-on lie!

Democracy is NOT ''the rule of majority''. Talk about 'the blind leading the blind'.:laugh:

Democracy; a system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives.

You just want to grasp onto a referedum result that was gained by the use of lies and ignorance.
If you didn't you'd have no problem with people voting now that they are better informed on the possible detrimental consequences of leaving the EU and now that they know that lies were used by the leave campaign which has been admitted.

A gentle reminder to those moaning about ‘democracy’. In this year’s GE the Tories not only lost their majority, but the British people also rejected their Hard Brexit.
When people voted yay or neigh for Brexit, they weren’t asked to vote on a ‘hard’ or ‘soft’ Brexit. A simple ‘stay’ or ‘leave’ sufficed and that’s why people who voted out have every right to be ****ing annoyed.

Here's yet another example, if any were needed, showing how Brexit aka The Government is falling apart.

To all those hardline Brexiteers determined to see as much damage done to the British economy as possible. Get a grip and start reminding yourself, this is not a fcuking pantomime.

Ah the ol' 'if you don't think the way I do, you don't respect democracy' bit.

Tell that to the person who I responded to who tried accusing me of that.

Of course you won't as you only target those whose views you disagree with despite others making the same comments.

The truth is that we haven't left the EU yet so all the above gloom and doom are just assumptions about what might happen when we do leave. None of it is fact. Those opposed to leaving keep harping on about the claims over money saved from the EU and yet we are not at that stage of leaving yet so how they can possibly know what any cash saved will be spent on? There is as much truth in complaining about it not happening as there is in the claim in the first place. Just the same as fear mongering about the demise of the economy when there aren't any factual signs it will happen.

Aren't you a Corbyn supporter. You do understand he wants a hard line Brexit don't you. He would be the one most likely to destroy our economy in more ways than one - spend, spend, spend, open borders, higher taxes - he would have a field day.

Has brexit suggested closed borders, no spending or low taxes?... no :/

I'm confused, you voted to leave, that's what you stated on this forum at the time, and now you asking those who voted to leave to get a grip? Hardline Brexit is a myth. There is leaving and there is staying in the EU in some form. I can't see why that is so hard to fathom. We voted to leave, not to be half in and half out.

I don't vote Tory and I couldn't give a stuff about the government losing it's majority. They led a crap campaign it backfired on them. Labour on the other hand led a surprisingly good campaign. The Tories probably won't last very long without a leader change and another election. Don't fool yourself it was a rejection of Brexit, it was far more a rejection of the manifesto. Had there been a genuine rejection of Brexit the lib dems would be in power. I have no idea why you are trying to pretend Brexit and the government are the same thing. Even that idiot Corbyn supports Brexit.

Democrasy is a system of government based on majority rule via votes. Take it up with the dictionary about democracy. Obvs you know more than they.

Clearly you aren't better informed for another vote since you oppose Brexit.

:thumbs:

Opposition, counter-politics and protest have been essential pillars of democracy since its infancy in ancient Greece... it's built into the very theory of democracy itself.

I'd suggest, jaxie, that if you want to understand democracy you might need to go a little further than "The dictionary". I'd say start with Aristotle and Plato's "Republic", then work your way up through modern political theory.

I don't know if this is "horribly patronising OMG" or whatever, I also don't particularly care... the idea that you can define and grasp a complex and vast political theory like modern democracy via a two-line dictionary definition is utterly ridiculous :facepalm:.

You are out of context. You seem to have a thing for me TS. :flutter: I clearly rattle your cage. :thumbs:

democracy

the belief in freedom and equality between people, or a system of government based on this belief, in which power is either held by elected representatives or directly by the people themselves:

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dict...lish/democracy