Sorry Niamh, I don't understand the point she was making here. If there is not a point, it is transphobia. That is the definition of transphobia. I am not insulting her. That is the correct adjective (if there was not a point to that post).

:clap1:

I agree 100% but apparently only my views and comments are under question so I'm off for a bit!

To clarify: Physical aspects of starting out as one sex were being promoted as a reason to give drugs to children. I was pointing out these aren't the only physical issues that can't be changed.

Its not really a crap metaphor though, but for sake of the conversation, I will bite here. What is the difference between someone who is transgender and transabled? Or in the case of that Rachel Dolezqal person, trans-racial? Really?

Transabled people are distressed by what they consider to be limbs that do not belong to them, they are disabled people trapped in able bodies. They have surgeries (if they can find doctors willing to do them) to correct this. In what way is this different to considering yourself a different sex than you are and having surgeries to 'fix' this?

My view on pretty much the whole topic is that adults should do whatever they feel will help them in their daily lives tbh (though studies show that 'transition' is not a cure as some think, as mental health a few years after the original honeymoon period actually goes downhill) but kids should be left well alone. We shouldn't be using kids in experimental treatments. There are enough 'detransitioners' to question this 'surgery or die' rhetoric that we are fed. Also the likes of mermaids should be ****ing ashamed for peddling this '50% of transkids kill themselves' nonsense. Scaring parents into medicating their children for life. When in MOST cases, the kid if just left to go through puberty would be perfectly happy as an adult, and in most cases simply gay. Yes, a handful of these kids will turn out to actually be transsexual when they are older, but I don't get why its seen as a good thing to treat ALL questioning kids with these powerful and dangerous drugs, on the offchance that they are one of the 20% (or less) who continue to question as adults.

Difference is, up to this date, only one of those things can be scientifically proven.... Theres also no evidence to being an earless person in a person with ears body either. So yeah crap lol. Unless of course I'm wrong and it can be scientifically proven that you can be an earless person, I didnt actually Google.

In theory maybe, but in practice it doesn't happen like that.

This is the only study done on this to date, so all we can really go on

http://dailysignal.com/2017/07/03/im...e-child-abuse/

The study, if you fancy reading it

http://www.pinktherapy.com/portals/0...ts_with_GD.pdf

What do you mean by this? :suspect: That males trapped in female bodies and vice versa can actually be scientifically proven?

Earless people, do exist apparently. I didn't know that either :laugh:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agenesis

Yes, there are several difference in the male and female brain. Off the top of my head, males have 7x more grey matter than females, and females have 10x more white matter than males, this leads to several behavioural differences and can be seen in frmi scanners. MTF brains very closely resemble a female brain and vice versa.
I'm not sure if transabled brains and transracial brains are currently being examined in similar ways, but I do look for articles on the topic regularly, it does interest me... to my knowledge, currently, theres no scientific foundation to people identifying this way being based on anything substantial.. yet.. (this might be controversial of me, but i dont think that evidence will ever exist).

Eta. Same goes for earless people trapped in ear-ful bodies... probably

There are differences in average female and male brains. There is no such thing as a male or female brain though, and most people cross over. Hell, black cab drivers have 'different' brains to the rest of the population simply because of their jobs. Brains are plastic, and there have never been any studies to actually prove this 'female brain in a male body' or anything. Ever. And I am fairly sure with the amount of cash thrown at this, if there was any proof, it would be shouted from the rooftops.

Transabled people have Body integrity identity disorder...which does show on brain scans. As...brains are plastic. So lived experiences will often show up. If a person convinces themselves a limb does not belong to them, the brain will adapt.

https://www.newscientist.com/article...n-brain-scans/

Trans is IMO, an extension of BIID. And similar to anorexia too (which also shows up in brain scans)


None of this has anything to do with the ethics of giving chemo drugs to children who don't need them though really. Which is the problem here. Adults can do whatever the hell they want to do to modify themselves, up to them.

I agree with no 'entirely male brain' but when a boy has a typical female brain, and when that can be seen on scanners, and when a parent would deny the child a drug that would stop that female turning into an adult male, its a bit.... wrong? Cruel? Dumb? Outdated? Especially if the child, or teen can verbally express that they know their gender, and this can be backed up.

I'll give your transabled link a read a little later on.. the main theory about that transracial woman is her link to her traumatic childhood.. details are hazy.. but I think her Uncle or father used to make her eat her own vomit, and researchers concluded that she may have wanted to identify as a race that were also poorly treated for that reason. I suppose it could be similar for transabled people? I dont think theres enough history on either topic for anyone to make conclusions.. unlike transgender, thats getting pretty solid now..

I think it's a good idea for when cases have been verified beyond a shadow of a doubt which they probably are for the most part since, like with all gender reassignment treatments, medical professionals will want to ensure that it's something the patient truly wants and is prepared for before they go ahead with it.

What a silly line of reasoning to discount medical advice on, like Kizzy said, you could say that to ignore pretty much every professional opinion of any field.

Well interestingly enough, there are strong links between transsexual people and autism too. And a LOT of trans people (especially FtM) have been sexually assaulted or raped aswell.

Its all quite fascinating, and I didn't really know anything about any of it until a year or so ago. I just think sticking kids on puberty blockers is really wrong, especially when most kids will grow out of it. When if they are put on blockers, they do NOT grow out of it. And that most who DO grow out of it are just gay as adults. So I do see it as modern day euginics and am quite puzzled how there seems to be such widespread support for it :S Yes it will be stressful for a kids to go through 'the wrong' puberty if it does turn out they were trans all along. It is equally stressful for a kid to reach adulthood and realise that they were just gay all along and now be stuck with a body that mimics the opposite sex and lifelong medical issues

There was a doctor done not long ago for prescribing hormones and such over the internet ffs. There is also an organisation called mermaids, who the NHS send parents of gender questioning kids to. This organisation pressures parents into transitioning their kids by telling them that nearly all trans kids try to kill themselves and so on, and encourage parents to buy offlabel drugs for when the Tavistock is 'taking too long' to treat. Its all a huge ****storm that will come to a head soon.

Would you have know what was best for you at 11? I know I wouldn't have. Infact if I was a kid today I would probably be set off on the route to blockers as I was 'stereotypically' a boy, HATED every second of puberty, did not want to be as woman...also was sure I would never want kids (something kids are unlikely to consider as no kid really wants kids) and I swear if someone had said to me 'look,. you can avoid all of this' I would have taken it with both hands without thinking of the consequences.

Agreed. I do not believe for a second that a ten year old fully knows or understands something like that. Doctors could end up on charges of abuse and with Hugh litigation claims if and when the consequences for the child in the future are not as expected.

I think this is the reason for our difference in opinion maybe?
I presume a blocker would stop puberty from going either way, and puberty would commence once more when the blocker isn't being taken. A gay man who took the pill for a day, a week, or a year would can stop taking the pill and resume his male puberty cycle, whereas a female in a mans body who is confident after the 5(?) years they have to be sure of their gender * can start the mtf process without an adams apple or a deep voice.

* I think thats the rule, your, I, or any teen who has an epiphany today can't change our sex any time soon, theres a lengthy procedure.. 5 years sounds familiar.

I would also be against a drug that starts the transistion period from an early age.. i dont think that is what this is.

Yes, in theory. However all (or nearly all) children who are on blockers go onto cross sex hormones. Now, I don't know why this is but can take a guess, huge brain changes occur in puberty. Blocking these changes will effectively keep you in the mindset that you were when puberty was supposed to occur. So you are not going to have a 'change of heart' as your brain will not have the maturity that it needs to make such a decision.

Where when just left alone to develop at their own rate, 80% (or more, depending on the study) of these children who were 'gender questioning' just grow out of it during/after puberty.

So yeah, in theory it sounds a decent idea, in practice most certainly not.

The only study done into this proves that blockers whilst technically reversible, are not in practice. Any further thought of studies have been shouted down by transactivists. As has research into 'detransitioners'. You have to wonder why this is...surely more understanding is best for everyone, right?

Absolutely sick and disgusting.

I suppose that could begin to explain why some researchers believe there are like 70+ genders. I guess gender-questioning could mean knowing that you're not male, assuming you must be female, but then realising you're one of the other 70 odd genders that I don't fully understand. Like bi-gender or agender etc.
But I think we're on the right track with this drug. The cross hormones might not be causal, they could have easily already been there. The drug could also be perfected in the future.. The more cases will just expand our knowledge on the area, and perhaps in 50 years times this sorta thing could be evaluated in a more effective way.
Terminating the use of a drug that can clearly be incredible useful isn't the answer.

But in the meantime, 80% of children put onto the drug, don't need to be on it? So effectively we are treating (and medicalising for life) 4 out of every 5 people put on it, when they don't need to be treat that way! Thats mental, surely...
https://www.nwhn.org/lupron-what-doe...womens-health/

Lupron causes significant safety concerns aswell...if it really worth it, so that 1/5 of the people who take it can look a little more feminine/masculine as an adult?!

https://www.statnews.com/2017/02/02/...alth-problems/

As for genders, gender is a social construct. I have no gender, so technically am 'a-gender' or 'gender-queer'. I only discovered this when looking into this fairly recently. I believe 'gender' is just personality, hence there being 2361278456238954234 of them. Sex and gender are not the same.

I guess at this point it would just be a game of swap the link..for every article there is on the dangers of the drug, there's an article that claims that all effects are completely reversible.

It is a powerful chemotherapy drug. Of course it is not harmless..

The only study done into it shows that they are not reversible in practice...I have read links that say they are reversible, oddly enough there has not been a study done on any of them, its just opinion. And yes, in theory they would be reversible...but noone who takes them changes their minds..

and you are assuming that there is endless funding for behavioural and congnitive therapies, try asking the parent of a child with behavioural difficulties or congnitive delay in this day and age how difficult it is to get assessed never mind a diagnosis or help in mainstream school

post of the thread, look at all the kids who were given the wonder drug Ritalin to control their behaviour instead exploring other ways of dealing with ADHD and other behavioural issues

As others have said, young kids who think they're trans most often grow of it by the time they hit puberty. While the blockers themselves don't cause sterilisation, they lead to transition hormones, which mean the child will never have been fertile in the first place.

Take Jazz Jennings. She's an MtF who transitioned young. Thanks to blockers and hormones, her penis never developed, and it can't be used in a sex "change" operation, because there's not enough material there.

Yes, Jazz is an exceptionally sad case. And yes, this is another issue with blockers. If the patient ever wants to go for full SRS in the future, the surgeons have nothing to work with. So whilst Jazz may look more feminine, the sex dysphoria will be even more horrendous as she can never have the surgery that she thinks would help her. Due to having the penis of a prepubescent child and not enough 'material' to work with. All so sad, and again, I don't see why there is so much support for it, at all. So many reasons to be against...

I expect Jazz will have huge health issue in the future anyway, due to blockers and cross sex hormones.

There have been no studies on the long term effects of blockers+SRS, so I guess now she's started the ball (heehee) rolling, she may as well be the weathervane.

Totally 100%.Said it better than i was thinking.

Alot of kids may find that when they hit puberty these thoughts go.Atleast give them a chance to develop properly into adults and then they can decide for themselves.
Doctors shouldn’t be entertaining the idea of messing with kids hormones like this.

Hugh litigation?

There aren’t enough :clap1: ‘s for this

Exactly

Yeah, I never had a child with ADHD but I'm sure it can't be healthy to be drugging a child up like that. I've read changing diets and things like that can help alot with kids with ADHD but that's alot more effort than giving them a pill