And there we have it again you equating wanting to reduce immigration with a rant about race. It is you and others that accuse anyone that dare mentions immigration as racist causing half the problems.

Wake up immigration is a huge issue for hundreds of thousands plus in Britain, Europe and the West in general and is a subject very much up for discussion despite all the racist allegations from the shouty few attempting to close people down.

We all have our own areas of interest. What may be a distraction and trivial to you, isn't to others.
This thread isn't a general discussion of the parties and their policies anyway.
Nobody is stopping you from making a thread discussing YOUR areas of interest.

Welcome to my world for about 6 years now I've felt I had no one to vote for. Who'd ever have thought the Tories would be a softer option than Labour which I think is how it stands now. I'll never vote Lib Dems again after their treachery to the students. Corbyn and this shady momentum group have been ringing alarms bells from the get go for me.

I'm your floating voter, the one they need to win and neither party is anywhere near the finish line.

Well well... someones very jittery at the prospect of a left wing govt, they're even attempting to suggest he's too old for the job as if the lobster ripping cigar smoking brandy guzzling stuffed shirts would be any fitter.

What have the right wing and the 'centre' done other than outsource the country into the floor? Time for a new way.

And as for the 'hang the tories' banner that is constantly referenced as a a slight to the left for some reason there is not one scrap of evidence that suggests that that was anything to do with Labour or any Labour affiliates or members so why is it toted as such?
It's a prime example of a tabloidesque demonisation that has no basis in fact but is used to discredit 'the left'... even though when referred to previously I personally stated on hereI did not agree with such language.

Renationalisation is common sense and as it happens the only option as far as I can see, unless we want more foreign investment in our public services and infrastructure... If someone could explain how a sovereign country that is effectively run remotely from another works? Because to me that would be the last thing that anyone who voted brexit wanted! We want to govern our own affairs don't we?... Well, do it then! run our own hospitals, trains, construction and whatever else carrillion has ( govt approved) messed up.

Say whatever you like about the left it is all at this stage scaremongering to maintain the right wing status quo which is about as dire as it gets so I say it's time for another way, take for example the collapse of carriolion were provisions put in place for the pensions of the workforce?... no they were however for the bonuses of the major stakeholders, why? And why is that just taken as acceptable and not causing a national outcry?...
Because in some warped way it's seen as right, it can be done and so it must be right... but it isn't right it's totally corrupt and wrong and our government is to blame here and yet again all we see in the media is LOOK OVER THERE! LOOK WHAT THE LEFTIES ARE DOING NOW! OOOOOOH, THEY'RE TERRIBLE!
It's a smokescreen and in the same old tunnel vision fashion many just can't see the bigger picture here.

Try not to focus to intently on the 'what if's' and look at what is happening right here and right now and ask yourself if it's what you want for your country. If the answer is no then there's an alternative.

Corbyn has the backing of banks, business, he wants brexit but on the social side he wants people to maintain the rights and protections they enjoy today, a decent wage, housing, effective schooling, fair taxes, and access to higher education for all... Who doesn't want that?

Not much point in caring for individuals if, whether by madness or sheer stupidity, the many can be wiped off the face of the earth by a nuclear bomb because he has disarmed the nation.

The world is full of madmen who would see such an act as making Britain easy pickings and would be only too keen to oblige. If he ever makes PM, which I doubt, he should never be allowed such power and put us all at risk like that. That sort of unrealistic idealism is nothing short of mental illness.

And just how in a democracy could he facilitate this?... Again this is just nothing more than a media inspired scare tactic, which you appear to have taken as gospel is going to come to fruition.... That is nothing short of mental illness, believing some fear driven hypothetical!

...yeah I agree, what may seem less important to some could be at the fore front of importance to others..not only in their thoughts but also reflected in how they vote etc...all we can do is respect all of the many factors in engaging in voting and therefore respecting individual opinions in reasons etc...I guess all we can do is discuss as we are doing here, to maybe help in branching out and expanding perspectives to set the old thought processes in motion more to consider ‘bigger pictures’...:laugh:...rather than concentrating focus on one specific aspect, you know...but it’s also a human nature thing to do that too and a perogative to do so for anyone who feels that’s how they’ll cast their vote etc...no party will ‘tick off’ a wish list that will be grand for all, so it starts to be what we feel would be the better option overall in terms of government...

Another great post from you Kizzy.

Needless to say I agree with all you say.
I also agree with Withano in saying right wing policies aren't working.
That is clear,how many targets have been missed and even abandoned by this govt.this last 7+ years.
How many of their own policies are they now dumping.

Their supporters avoid all that,were it a Labour or other govt however,who had been reducing planned growth figures near every budget.
Failing to make near any of their targets and reducing the NHS to the chaos it is in now,with across the board fears from staff,for patient safety.
The same people and the media would be screaming for Labour or that govt.to be out.

The fear of hardline Cons and their hardline supporters are not really what Labour would do,it is that the Cons are more than likely to not have power after the next election,'thankfully in my view'.

They think they should be the only party in power
always with the rest of parliament serving up token opposition
I have loads of usually Conservative supporters as friends, most of whom are dismayed at this govt.
Some could not vote for them in June last year.

This near hysterical venom against Corbyn,is possibly because he looks a winner after all.
He probably could at least lead the largest party at the next election.
The fear of their precious current heartless Cons in cabinet,being turfed out is behind the venom,I THINK.

When and if that happens, I really hope the great many decent and caring Con MPs make sure they take control of their party again.
Scrapping the cruel,heartless and nasty elements that have been far more evident in the current Con party under Cameron and now May.

Anyway,great post Kizzy.
No matter what others think I for one admire your determination and likely more factual posting.

Does Corbyn support unilateral disarmament or not? Are you denying he does?

All right, keep your hair on. Of course everyone wants that but people disagree on who is best placed to provide that in the future and clearly many don't have much faith in Corbyn to do that. He talks the talk, but whether he can walk the walk or not is questionable. He also has a dodgy history and some very extreme left-wing views which do not sit well again with many people.

It is not as black and white as you make out and is not just about providing for those with less. There are many aspects of politics to think about including as to which party won't completely devastate our futures, increase public debt and damage the long-term economy, not just the short-term. Labour have no better a history than the Tories in many respects so stop implying the man has no faults and is some kind of second-coming - to believe that really is a mental illness.

And that's why the far left is so dangerous. There is an excuse for every questionable action in Corbyn's past, and indeed, his present. They talk about making the country better for all... but that's not what they mean. They accuse others of cronyism when they are terribly guilty of it themselves ("Dame" Sharmishta Chakrabarti for instance...). There is a hatred of the rich, you only have to read through this forum to see that. Never mind the fact that they are employers and investors. I believe in the wisdom of crowds and I believe Corbyn will never get in. Luckily for me, if it does happen, I'll probably be living in the US... let's hope Trump has been impeached by then.

There is always a sickening justification.


Great post.

He does, but as I said we live in a democracy there is no way he could even as PM override the will of the people.

There would be vote upon vote, he would have to have the backing of both his cabinet and the rest of parliament... it's never going to happen so again it's a pointless misnomer to suggest it as a viable reason not to have him as PM.

Again you're alluding to something that is only ever hinted at it isn't a fact, there is actual evidence against say, Hunt (BskyB) cameron ( phone hacking) to name just two. You're also neglecting to say theat the current PM is up to her scrawny neck in this carrillion scandal as it appears the govt have a vested interest and are not simply 'customers'.

Where on the forum is there any indication to a 'hatred of the rich' and why have you brought this into the debate, are you suggesting that those who become rich by means of corrupt activity shouldn't be held to account?...

If you believe in the wisdom of crowds then you will be interested in the views of the 500,000+ Labour members then perhaps?
If you choose to live in Trumpville then fair play to you I hear Ms hopkins has plans to move there too, there of course is no questioning of his personal integrity.

What's dangerous is any govt of any persuasion,hammering the weakest in any society including sick and disabled people.

Such as this vile govt has been allowed to get away with for over 7 years now.

That's a real danger to not only decent democracy but to people totally unable to have any influence or the strength to stand up for themselves.

There is no hatred of the rich from me,I am on the left now of politics.
That's an old jibe that's been used for decades,it's absolute rubbish.
However in any decent society,it should be the strongest backs that carry most of the load needed.
That's what the left advocate and it's a far more decent hope than the cruel heartlessness being allowed to be played out now,by this hardline lot leading govt.now.

Can you reply without the playground chiding please?
Of course nobody knows what kind of leader he will be nobody can but at this point in time he appears to be offering what many in the country want, he has a viable manifesto and a mandate that's credible ...it's more than adequate.

There is nothing 'dodgy' about him, the media had dug and dug and the worst they've come up with is him attending a rally being manhandled by police officers, nothing more. He has no affiliations to any terrorist organisations such is the implication.

Are you aware if the increase in public debt over the period of the last two parliaments? It is very much about those with less as it is those who are bearing the brunt of these austerity measures.
Where will be the burden of the £200 billion to be creamed from the taxpayer fall would you say?

There is no mental illness here, I'm under no illusion that 'new labour' were faultless or there won't be difficult decisions to be made under a Corbyn govt however I need to borrow those rose tinted glasses of yours to see any merit in the May govt, as far as I can see she has led a merry band of incompetents. Every single minister has some skeleton or scandal in their past/present, for me at this stage they're only aim is to siphon off as much money offshore to their pals as possible... They know they're position is untenable so have chosen to bleed the country dry prior to 2020.

That's what the cult all say. There is plenty out there about his dodginess, you just don't do the research or block it all out. You conveniently fail to mention that it was an IRA rally. He was very much affiliated with IRA terrorists and murderers, it was just so long ago not many care anymore... The victims are still dead, but so what? Supporting a terrorist enabler and sympathiser is fine if it will put more money in pockets.
Just keep telling yourself it's all propaganda against the poor old dear and sleep well at night.

So what would your chosen party be Jet?
Do you think the Tories are doing a good job?
Should we be bringing back the likes of Blair and New Labour?
What's your views on our chosen political party in the here and now? presumably you've done as much research on the Cameron and May as you have on Corbyn.

He was at a rally, he didn't mastermind Bloody Sunday did he?

I'm not especially interested in broader politics DR, but I am very much interested and informed about the politics of my country, N. Ireland. My father and my uncle were involved in N. Ireland government in the 60's through to the late 90's, though both are passed away now. I spent quite a lot of time in my Dad's office in Stormont after I was delivered there from school listening with rapt attention to the various goings on while pretending to be totally absorbed with my 70's style Gameboy. :hee:
My chosen political party in N. Ireland is the SDLP (the Social Democratic and Labour Party) and always has been (my Dad's party). My uncle was Alliance.

I know a lot personally about Corbyn, I wish to God I didn't - May and Cameron, as much as anyone does about them personally I suppose.

Do I think the Tory's are doing a good job? No.
Do I think Labour under Corbyn would do better? Hell no.

No, he did not. His sins came after that event.

This is the third time in our rare discourses that you have slipped Bloody Sunday into the equation and it comes across as an excuse for the thousands of deaths caused by the IRA. Why do you keep referring to Bloody Sunday and never ever mention the thousands of deaths in the following years?
I have wondered for some time if you have the same sympathies as Corbyn....which may be one of the reasons why you support someone so unproven with such blindness and passion.

I didn't know that about your background, jet. Very interesting.

I don't think I have mentioned it before Livia. Corbyn supporters seem to think that I am so against him because I am a closet Tory or May fanatic, and I am just spouting propaganda against him; but the truth is I am not at all inspired to spend my time discussing the merits or otherwise of the main UK parties here. I am more interested in N.Ireland politics, with a special interest in the history of the Troubles.

The thing is though jet, you're unwilling to actually go into the specifics of what has forged such strong opinions / dislike. Which is completely fair enough, you're obviously not duty bound to do so, but also you can't state such strong opinions and then be surprised when people don't automatically agree on the back of comments like "I just know lots of things. I know secret stuff that others don't. Just trust me."

I mean... I'm not saying that you DON'T have information that others aren't aware of; but you can't keep using that to back up your arguments if you won't (or can't, for whatever reason) actually disclose what it is that you claim to know.

I've been posting my disdain of Corbyn long enough to be under any illusions that what I say makes any difference to his supporters, TS. Yes, there are things that I can't disclose, but even if I did, who would believe me?
I have posted what I can disclose and that I KNOW, that he was hand in glove with the IRA, he was a strong supporter and enabler, that he had nothing whatsoever to do with the peace process, quite the contrary, and it isn't believed.
But I'll continue to refute any references to his non - involvement and the nonsense that he played a big part in the peace process when I see them.

I realise I'm posting mostly to make ME feel better, and to feel I am doing something, anything, for those who were affected by him...and I'll continue to do so.

...:hug:...you’re never posting just for you, jet...All of your words and all of your thoughts are always of great interest..no matter what the topic...and no, you’re not attempting to reinforce an argument in any way...just speaking from your heart...:hug:...

Bless you Ammi, that means so much to me. :love:

To be fair jet, if it's any consolation, your posts (and looking into them) has been part of leading me to the conclusion that Corbyn is definitely not the answer. While I can't completely jump on board with the idea that he's a full-blooded terrorist sympathiser (I feel more likely he'll disingenuously support a lot of things to further various agendae), I do appreciate that he certainly isn't any BETTER than other mainstream UK politicians. He's developed a level of smugness that doesn't fit with the persona he's trying to project, at all, and therefore I can only imagine that most of what he says on any subject needs to be taken with a pinch of salt.

Coming from the centre faction of Labour - Progress - momentum are very loud and I've been berated loads of times for saying I supported Liz Kendall then Owen Smith for Labour leader.

It's sad to see what's becoming of my party.

Just to echo Ammi and TS.... I always look at, and enjoy your posts jet, you're definitely not posting for yourself.

I'm going to be honest from the off, I've reported the comment in bold TWICE as I don't appreciate with you suggesting I'm an IRA sympathiser simply because I disagree with your view on Corbyn. But seeing as it's still here I feel I have a right to reply.

I keep reiterating the Bloody Sunday murder of innocents, as that's what it was of course in the hope that you will see that whatever sins came before he is not party to them nor does he have blood on his hands....Unlike the govt of the day, now you can gaslight all you like but the fact remains that we were up to our neck in it well before any involvement from Corbyn, where's the 'sympathy for them?

Terrorism isn't something that just happens... there were years of murder, injustice, false imprisonment, marginalisation and misinformation which led to factions on both sides forming.

It's impossible to just jump to a point in history and start tub thumping... you have to look at the picture as a whole and assess accountability.
Please stop with your irrational accusations please and attempt to maintain a little objectivity here.

'In all 19 people were killed in 1969, 14 of them civilians. They included a nine-year-old schoolboy, struck by a police bullet as he lay in his bedroom. An Irish Republican Army (IRA) member died in a car crash and a teenage member of the Fianna, the IRA’s junior wing, was shot by loyalists. A member of the Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF) was killed by his own bomb - just one of many paramilitaries to die accidental deaths. The first Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC) officer killed was shot on the Shankill Road by the UVF.

Each death was a terrible event for family, friends and neighbours. Within a short period, events would dictate a pattern of conflict spanning decades. There were phases to the bloodshed.

British Home Secretary Reginald Maudling declared that he would settle for an "acceptable level of violence" at the start of 1971, but within a year the introduction of internment (imprisonment without trial) and the events of Bloody Sunday served to recruit large numbers of young nationalists into republican paramilitary groups.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/topics/troubles_violence

See,I've gone the other way.
A staunch Labour supporter because I want more and better social justice.
So my right wing days are gone,especially with this truly awful uncompromising lot in govt now.

However, I was not an advocate of Corbyn,I felt it a mistake electing hin leader and I feared for the party.
However over time I have come round to him more.
He has brought policies back to Labour which firstly no one thought any leader would dare.
However again,as I found canvassing in June,people like the policies,they want them too.

While still holding reservations on Corbyn myself and indeed as do the people I talked to in June.
One thing came across more,people who even have reservations on Corbyn,do believe he believes in the policies he advocates.

They,and indeed I do too,really believe he would deliver those policies.
It amazed me the large and it seems ever growing number if the younger new voters, who want his policies too.
So I think the wishful thinking Corbyn is going to go away is going to now lead to disappointment to said people.
With over half a million membership and Labour so strong on the ground now and the Cons estimated to be at least under 100,000 membership,possibly more like only 80,000.

Corbyn has in his way,helped polarise politics again between the 2 parties again.
The choice is vastly different,his is the vision it seems the newer generation of voters want and they are ever growing now too.
So it's sad for me to see you pull back TS,as your past arguments especially on the cruelty and wrongs of this govt,all unchanged and still there,we're in my view strong and valid ones.

However this is democracy,I turned my back on the Cons, due to the endless heartless policies.
Equally you have altered your position now.

For me however,it's about fair and just policies,social justice and reaching out.
None of which I see in this PM governnents policies.
Which seem created to bring down further, those already down anyway and to keep them there.
Under the daft electoral system we have,there can only be a CON led govt or a LAB led govt.
I know,regardless of leader,which one I prefer and think the Country needs too now.

Thanks TS, for looking deeper into what I have said. That is all I could hope for; for people not to take Corbyn at face value but to look at him with less than rose - coloured glasses, listen to other views and experiences, do some research for themselves into his past and decide whether he is someone they can support - and hoping of course that they will see through his 'causes' (like his latest as an egotistical saviour from social injustices) as nothing more than a desperation for recognition and validation, no matter how many lies he tells or who it hurts along the way.

Thank you Livia.

Sadly, I see nothing here that tells me you condemn the IRA, as you have never done in any of your replies to me.

Socialism is cancer.

Be thankful you have food on the shelves in your shops. Socialism takes that away from you.

Be thankful that ambitious rich people feed us.

Corbyn wants to stop the ambitious rich people and give their wealth to the people that do nothing for society but take.

You're so lucky to be British, don't give it away.

I have, several times I'm no advocate of terrorism no matter what your implications previously.

Have you publicly condemned the loyalists, govt and security forces for their role in the troubles?

MMMMM Soylent green....

...I have to say that I’ve never been hugely on board with Corbyn as a potential country leader but in recent times he’s felt quite ‘opportunist’ in ways that have been quite unpleasant...anyway not wanting to get too much into the political debates..:laugh:...I’m certainly no fan of the present government or leader, but I think as Livia has always said..it’s about the quality of labour as a party as well and being a strong opposition and the right opposition..rather than just taking one extreme end of a spectrum and zipping it along to the opposite extreme....?...I’m never that comfortable anyway when the leader of the party becomes ‘bigger than the party itself and what it stands for’...I think we had that to a large extent with Blair, that kind of ‘celebrity’ status...and well, look at the consequences with that...and obviously similar with the USA now...(...sorry Maru...)...and where the anti vote against Hilary has led them now...and also having an ego as a leader, which I’m not convinced Jeremy isn’t a very self ego person as well...