Originally Posted by Dezzy (Post 9832808)

Bit of a silly argument considering that the numbers of youth voters have been higher recently than normal, possibly ever.

I don't think not marching for a cause doesn't make you any less worthy of speaking for it. Marches aren't exactly commonplace and usually they happen in places like London which is not accessible to everyone.

Seems like very slight reasons to try to devalue someone's input into the discussion.

Originally Posted by Cherie (Post 9832811)

because people were complaining that Amanda and Wayne were not politically involved and are now riding on a wave of other peoples hard work, just wonder how many complaining actually put some work in, lobbied their MP, etc

Originally Posted by Dezzy (Post 9832795)

It's also very easy to generalise a group of people based on nothing, it seems.

Originally Posted by Dezzy (Post 9832820)

Difference being that they are notable people and the average person is not? They are far from A-listers but if they spoke out about it more people would listen then if it was me or you.

Originally Posted by Withano (Post 9833095)

South Park accurately portrays how ****ing dumb people sound when they say **** lile this. Unfortunately this blokes iPhone copy is the closest to a vid I can get.

Originally Posted by Cherie (Post 9832696)

Well he is entitled to his opinion and it seems to me many of the older generation of gays are much more tolerant of others views, which is an interesting turnaround in these days of open mindedness :laugh:

Originally Posted by Cherie (Post 9832811)

because people were complaining that Amanda and Wayne were not politically involved and are now riding on a wave of other peoples hard work, just wonder how many complaining actually put some work in, lobbied their MP, etc

Originally Posted by luvjustin (Post 9832727)

Aggression is sometimes the only way people will listen.

Stonewall being a prime example.

Originally Posted by Dezzy (Post 9832790)

Just because someone explains their views doesn't mean other people has to accept them as the truth. People ARE allowed to hold opposing views, you know.

I didn't think Ann was homophobic for the most part of this series, I thought she had no problem with the gays but disagreed with marriage but it's becoming apparent that she does have homophobic tendencies and I don't think you can expect people to accept that and keep quiet. She's allowed her views and so is everyone else. Like she said in the house earlier on in the series, I believe, 'people are entitled to their offense'.

Originally Posted by Livia (Post 9833242)

People are allowed to hold opposing views. So what are we all doing here discussing Ann's views? The ones that she's allowed to hold?

Now they've taken the offence they're entitled to, what do they want to do with it? Shane speaking to people individually about Ann, trying to get them to agree with him... what does he... and you... and people arguing his case on here... want them to do with Ann? Do they want her to repent? Do they want her thrown out of the house? Now that everyone is quite clear that they are offended, what now?

Originally Posted by Niamh. (Post 9833255)

Well by the sounds of what he was saying to Wayne and Amanda, he wants them to tackle her views as well

Originally Posted by Livia (Post 9833273)

How are they going to tackle them, though? I don't know what they want from her. Are they going to sit round her and individually bring up everything she's done - or not done - in the past that they don't agree with? Do they want her humiliated? Thrown out? It's dominating the house at the moment and the only one who's not had any direct input in the current grievances is Ann. It's making the Ginuwine/Ashley showmance seem entertaining...

Originally Posted by Cherie (Post 9832696)

Well he is entitled to his opinion and it seems to me many of the older generation of gays are much more tolerant of others views, which is an interesting turnaround in these days of open mindedness :laugh:

Originally Posted by Kazanne (Post 9832713)

I think we should take Amandas advice,ditch the labels ,live and let live,no one gender needs to be better than the other, we are all entitalled to our own views,we don't HAVE to like anyone,lets just as I said live and let live,it's not hard to do,all people should be toleratant ,not just a selective few.

Originally Posted by Jamie89 (Post 9836016)

Older gay people are probably more used to being discriminated against because of their sexuality so it's not as unusual a thing to happen for them as it is for younger people, if there's a general difference between the generations I'd say it's because of that rather than a difference in open mindedness. And it's because of a lot of older gay people fighting for equality and taking a stand against the kind of views Ann has that caused change, which wouldn't have happened if everyone had Biggins stance.



I see 'live and let live' as sort of being a reason for equal rights activism and fighting peoples intolerance, not being the antithesis to it, in that everyone should just be able to live their lives and allow others to without persecution or different treatment because of something like sexuality. I'd say it's Ann who doesn't believe in 'live and let live'.
(I also don't understand how being against intolerance is itself an act of intolerance.)

Originally Posted by Niamh. (Post 9833255)

Well by the sounds of what he was saying to Wayne and Amanda, he wants them to tackle her views as well

Originally Posted by Kazanne (Post 9836106)

Ann said herself what two people do in private is entirely up to them,so I'de say that is 'live and let live'

Originally Posted by Livia (Post 9833242)

People are allowed to hold opposing views. So what are we all doing here discussing Ann's views? The ones that she's allowed to hold?

Now they've taken the offence they're entitled to, what do they want to do with it? Shane speaking to people individually about Ann, trying to get them to agree with him... what does he... and you... and people arguing his case on here... want them to do with Ann? Do they want her to repent? Do they want her thrown out of the house? Now that everyone is quite clear that they are offended, what now?

Originally Posted by Dezzy (Post 9836153)

It's not that difficult Livia, She's allowed to hold her view, people are allowed to discuss that view. A person is just as entitled to their offense as they are their opinions.

The problem is that you, like so many people, only care about freedom of speech when it benefits you, Ann is entitled to her opinion but if anyone has a view that opposes that then obviously that's an act of shutting her down, trying to silence her etc. Everyone is entitled to their opinions and freedom of speech protects no one from others criticising those opinions, someone saying that disagree is not them trying to silence another person's opinion.

I don't get what's so difficult about that to understand.

Originally Posted by Marches (Post 9836157)

But you support someone who berates and isolates someone purely because of their opinion, therefore denying free speech

Originally Posted by Dezzy (Post 9836153)

It's not that difficult Livia, She's allowed to hold her view, people are allowed to discuss that view. A person is just as entitled to their offense as they are their opinions.

The problem is that you, like so many people, only care about freedom of speech when it benefits you, Ann is entitled to her opinion but if anyone has a view that opposes that then obviously that's an act of shutting her down, trying to silence her etc. Everyone is entitled to their opinions and freedom of speech protects no one from others criticising those opinions, someone saying that disagree is not them trying to silence another person's opinion.

I don't get what's so difficult about that to understand.

I don't want nothing to be done to Ann, she is allowed her views and we are allowed to condemn those views. I only care that freedom of speech is preserved and a lot of people defending Ann are trying to shut down people criticising her.

Originally Posted by Dezzy (Post 9836162)

How is he denying her the right to her opinion? She is free to say what she wants and has done.

This is an example of what I'm saying. you believe Ann can have her views but any opposition is seen as trying to deny her, her opinion. It's bull**** and it's everything you saying that Shane J is guilty of.

Originally Posted by Livia (Post 9836163)

You are so rude sometimes. And you didn't answer my question. But don't bother now... I'm npt interested. Maybe someone else with an opposing view to mine will answer... like an adult.

Originally Posted by Marches (Post 9836166)

‘I don’t agree with you so I’ll manipulate the rest of the house to dislike you’

Does that seem healthy for free speech?

Originally Posted by Marches (Post 9836176)

She is being inadvertently silenced

Such a manipulating her words to make her look like a homophobe. People will dismiss her opinions now, inadvertently refusing her free speech and acceptance of it

Originally Posted by Marches (Post 9836176)

She is being inadvertently silenced

Such a manipulating her words to make her look like a homophobe. People will dismiss her opinions now, inadvertently refusing her free speech and acceptance of it

Originally Posted by Livia (Post 9836283)

That's how I'm seeing it too.

Shane J wasn't engaging her on her opinions, he was talking about Ann behind her back, trying to turn others against her, or maybe to get them to pull her up, I'm not sure what he wanted. I keep asking... no one seems to know what he actually wants from her.

Originally Posted by AnnieK (Post 9836189)

I get that having free speech allows people to challenge it as it should but what happens then. Is it a case of he who shouts loudest, or should we not concentrate on educating people who are willing to listen and kearn about oppression faced by minority groups, rather than trying to change the views of people who are unwilling to change? There are plenty of people willing to listen and kearn but as is shown there are people who won't. As we've seen with shane j, fighting against people like Ann only leads to frustration and then the very good of the message gets diluted.

Shane J has a way to him that people will listen to, he is educated and passionate but he has spent so long listing Ann's digressions that all his good work has been pushed to the back of peoples minds because of the way he has approached it.

Originally Posted by Paula D (Post 9836287)

I've asked time and time again and no-one seems willing to answer.

What do Shane and his supporters want from Ann?

Do they want her to change her view? Because if they do then they're going the wrong way about it.

Do they want her sacrificed on the cross? Because if so, ain't going to happen.

Originally Posted by poppsywoppsy (Post 9836312)

I am concerned about when Ann leaves the house because the abuse she is getting on here is concerning.

I also think BBBOTS will be gunning for her. She will be unaware of what's been going on too.

I hope she leaves with Amanda, that will be helpful.

Ann has enjoyed herself in the house, more than she thought she would.

I also think Shane J once he is out of the house will get quite a shock as he is not everyone's cup of tea and apart from his Gay mates, he could get a backlash like he has already had in the house.

Originally Posted by Kazanne (Post 9832713)

all people should be toleratant ,not just a selective few.

Originally Posted by Jamie89 (Post 9836016)

(I also don't understand how being against intolerance is itself an act of intolerance.)

Originally Posted by Dezzy (Post 9836361)

Yes, let's admire Ann for making an effort to prevent equal rights by voting against pretty much every gay rights issue that came up while she was in Parliament and for endorsing psychological abuse via conversion therapy :clap1:

Originally Posted by Paula D (Post 9836424)

Who's admiring Ann for that? I'd love to see an example???

Back up your statement please.

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet (Post 9836357)

The difference to all of you and shane J is Ann did something to make a change

Asd i have said - she stuck up her hand a volunteered

You may disagree with her politics and religion but yiou cant not admire her for making the effort

So far Shane has done nothing, nothing at all


This is the year of the woman and Ann is a woman in a mans game (still) and she has done very well and should be celebrated and not hounded for doing her job for the people of this country. WHen Ann was being pilloried for being a woman with a view you lot (mostly) and shane J were sh1tting in your nappies


jesus wept

Originally Posted by Dezzy (Post 9836361)

Yes, let's admire Ann for making an effort to prevent equal rights by voting against pretty much every gay rights issue that came up while she was in Parliament and for endorsing psychological abuse via conversion therapy :clap1: