The main problem I have with religion is the expectation that we should all "play along". I mean if someone is saying... Just be polite / respectful and say nothing at all, that's totally fine in most situations. During the course of open debate, however, what I simply cannot do is sit there pretending that religious belief is in ANY way based in logic, reason or evidence. I can't pretend that it's actually feasible that one of these hundreds of religions - which, yes, ALL are cults that rely entirely on indoctrination and emotional manipulation - has actually stumbled upon universal truth through sheer coincidence. No. The chances that any religion is "correct" or even anywhere in the ballpark of being correct are so infinitesimally small that they are effectively zero.

Anyone who finds that "offensive", should steer well clear of religious debate, and stick with those who will happily coddle or reinforce fanciful beliefs on the basis that "it's OK if it keeps people happy".

Absolutely.
The trouble with Islam though, seems to me, is not purely religious. The West has played a rather negative role in that region. Starting all the way back with colonisation and drawing arbitrary borders through constant meddling, propping up unpopular leaders and economic exploitation. So you have various "patriotic" justifications weaved into religious arguments for fighting the West.

When people shout words such as Allahu Akbar when committing mass murder they make it about religion. When they post videos on line making threats to the West based on Islam they make it about religion. When Western countries start to want to protect themselves by protecting their borders they can’t then complain. Such actions have consequences.

To be fair though it's mostly the other way round. The political motivations came first, Islam was then used to "weaponise" fanatics to use as an army, because that sort of hardcore belief is the easiest way to create a committed fighting force.

I have no doubt their main justification is religious, but politics play a role too, especially in recruitment. They play on grievances against the west, they call us crusaders etc
I'm not saying the west shouldn't defend themselves. But can't help thinking we helped to create that mess. Look at mass migration. Europe existed for decades alongside a poorer Africa and Middle East. There was no problem with mass migration until we destabilised the status quo in response to Osama. More terror groups emerged and people started moving, fleeing all over the place.
From the terrorists point of view, I'd imagine such chaos is perfect. It helps to foster conflict at home and it helps to smuggle their people into the West.
It is what it is. I have no problem with Europe closing borders. Such mass migration is not good for anybody, even those fleeing.
In the long run it may be cheaper and better for Europe to throw funds and resources to set up refugee camps in the region rather than accept them at home.
But we moving off-topic...

For many the motivations, religious or political, don’t really change anything as they are so closely intertwined. The outcome and risk is still the same hence the response.

But they're so intermingled. Doesn't Koran call for a creation of a caliphate, like Isis tried to do?

A fairy story for people who need a crutch in life and a lot of people have made big money from their gullibility

Yes but that's why it's been ripe for manipulation. Religious texts are all full of rhetoric that's easy to frame in the context of War.

The tidal political forces in the middle east have frequently been western, right back to the middle ages, with Islam being used as a tool in that (just as Christianity has been used in the west, many times).

Whether or not there's still anyone at the wheel is another debate. ISIS was basically the result of deliberately created militant Islamic groups, funded, armed and promoted by the West and Russia throughout the 20th century. They then were "cut loose" and reformed as something different that DOES have religious motivation. But it's not a group that formed naturally.

ISIS was even a disgrace for the islam tbh, because it is stated in the Koran that terrorism is against their religion

what they did was paint all muslims as evil, and cause lots of destruction and terror throughout the world

To be honest with the risk involved, I don’t think the history, whatever it is, is as relevant as the here and now. It is the threat they pose to the West now that counts and people don’t need a history lesson to know that.

These people from certain minority groups - which are only a minority in the West, they are the majority in many other parts of the world, identify with this particular religion and group, whatever their motives, and there lies the problem. They may or may not be using religion as an excuse for their crimes but the threat is still the same. People naturally want to minimise the risk not increase it.

What the hell are you talking about ??? :conf: :facepalm: , I'm talking about Religion in general it's not because of the Quran you mentioned .

And you obviously have no idea on my previous posts , I've made comments on Christianity/ Catholism .

All I'm saying is it's people who abuse religion , the average person with faith & religion is peaceful and they don't push any beliefs on people .

I don't believe in reincarnation but I don't mock Buddhism .

they push beliefs on to their children

sadly

Obviously everyone is different .

There will always be strict conservative families , and yes some people are fanatics who force their agendas on other people like it's their way or the high way and that's wrong to do .

But you can't tar these people with the same brush :bored: :facepalm:

There's arrogance and brainwashing in some Athieism as well , some of them are very forceful with their beliefs or rather not beliefs .

I don't like anyone who tries to push anything on anyone :nono:

Don't all parents do that to an extend? Push their worldview on their children?
Once they grow up, children have free will to reject that baggage.

I am not religious and not a fan of religion in general. But I only have a problem with it when it significantly infringes on the rights and values of others. One in particular is doing so, in my opinion, big time and posing a threat to many.

My comment to you was based on the fact that you didn’t pass comment on other far more negative comments on Jesus and Christianity but I made one criticism of of the Koran/Quran and you jumped all over it. It made no sense and sounded biased.

I read through the thread and saw no previous posts of yours criticising others who had made stronger anti Christianity threads - only mine which found fault with The Koran. If you have done so in other threads how on earth am I supposed to know that - I was talking about this thread.

must agree, majority of religious people are sensible about these things

yes just like happens with virtually all muslims and say jews....

oh wait

I was brought up Catholic, didn't do me any harm. Still have fondness for it. Best religion when it comes to rituals and mysticism. And the churches, all the old churches...

you were one of the lucky ones who were not horribly sexually abused

its not a great thing to celebrate

ehm, I was as it happens. But no lasting harm was done and rather not talk about the details.

welcome to religion

Exactly

As a parent obviously you're views and beliefs will be taught to your children, at a young age the child is introduced to it and then as they grow up it's their choice to decide.

This thread took a turn from interesting to SD&N-ey real fast

could have happened in other places

need to distinquish between religion and the church as an institution

it's not that bad

yes just look at all the muslim children in the middle east and asia rejecting religion

oh wait no they dont

thye just grow up to do the same thing to their children

I mean, it is. The OP raises an interesting question, and nobody has been close to discussing that for 50-odd posts. Shame really.

Don't think yourself special ,I just decided to reply to yours as it was just luck of the draw . I read through all comments. You're the one taking it the wrong way ,I was talking Religion in general . Let's be sensible.

I'm not biased atall . I'm talking about other topics (not every thread on the forum) as I don't partake in every discussion on this forum :facepalm: .

yes, it's gone off topic but it's still recoverable and people are still willing to discuss without dramz

I don't find religion a problem per-se , it's how people respond and act upon it that is the problem imo, I was brought up as a Christian , and do believe in something else ,something higher as in God , I do get ridiculed for it sometimes,but I really don't care ,it's my choice, I don't care what others believe in either ,that is also their choice, but when people take religion and use it to oppress and hurt others then ,they are a problem.

Religion and religious beliefs bring great peace and comfort to some. I really dont understand the need for some people to ridicule and mock people of faith.

Some people use religion to excuse and explain atrocities as though they were carrying out some greater orders.

I don't agree with pushing religion onto children, my parent's (neither of whom ever attend church) were really pissed off that I didn't have.my some christened but I said he should choose as and when he wants to get christened. He may want to follow another religion, he may want to become a jedi and when he decides that he can do it.

I believe Jesus was a very religious man of his time. Son of god, born if a virgin....Not so much but I remain open minded and respect people's wishes to believe that.

I said it came across that way not that you did. You are the one who got arsy with your facepalm emojis and now saying I think I am special - where did I say that? It just sounded that you were criticising me for criticising Islam in particular. Ok you weren’t - but surely you can see how I may have thought that. There was no need for above comment or facepalm.

Corruption & abuse happens in all types of places ,once again you're mixing up religion with the people that are the problem :bored:

If you read a news article about a teacher abusing his pupil , are you going to bad-mouth all schools & education and say it no good and that we should scrap it all ?? .

lol

religion is people, it was invented by people and is maintained by people

i have no clue what you think it is?

if you have a an example where similar systematic child abuse happened like the catholic church then lets compare?

LT, abuse in Catholic Church was more than anywhere else because there's celibacy. Celibacy was not invented by Jesus or Old Testament. It was added later, by people.
I don't see why Jesus should be blamed for that and Jesus is the topic of your thread.

I think because people see so many bad examples of religion or what they "think" is religion it makes them ignorant .

Of course there's always wolves in sheep clothing ,and dishonest corruption but it's ridiculous to put everyone in the same box .

The crazy fanatics are always the ones who get air time as well .

But yeah as I was saying the normal average person in religion is just minding their own business getting on with things ,and are peaceful .

Nothing wrong with a healthy debate,but I don't understand why people mock take the p is s out of religion .

As I've said I don't believe in reincarnation but I don't make fun of it :shrug:

I dont think anyone is blaming Jesus, why do you say that?

The fault lies in a cult that is based on hideous lies and abuse of power

I get confused. We're moving all over the place with this convo: Jesus, later doctrinal additions, Islam, church as institution, geopolitics...

its the insidious nature of religion. the whole thing is based on lies so its no surprise