Tbf, she hasn't done that at all.

Most transwomen are quite aware they're not the same as born women, but it seems every time a debate arises its the first point, when most trans peoples reactions would be "well, duh?" I also find it interesting that the debates are always about transwomen, transmen generally never seem to be even considered in these debates (I'm glad they don't have to go through it tbh), most trans people just wanna live their lives in peace, but time and time again we have to put up with being used as a political tool.

Did anyone go off?

It seems the feminists and the transexuals are in a full scale war atm.
2 suggestions would be..
Why not just keep public areas sex based to keep things simple?
Penis’ go in male changing areas and toilets and vaginas go in female areas.
So if you’ve had the op then you can go into the changing area of your new sex.

OR

Have proper changing areas and toilets with full floor to ceiling doors and let anybody use them.

Prisons are more complicated.There really needs to be some prisons with trans dedicated wings or you’re going to end up with problems.

They have that in the jails here... they give them different colored armbands, and there is one for if they're homosexual or trans, etc... I'm not sure what the armbands actually look (have to ask hubby)... maybe like hospital bands? But they are at higher risk for assault in those areas... we segregate them here... people are put into lock-down if the Gen pop tank are not friendly towards them for whatever reason... they have to keep an eye on that constantly in case a fight breaks out, so they can respond quickly...

I think TS may have borrowed from my comment where I mention the concept of self-identification (in general)... that's different than Transgenderism... it's one thing to say an apple is an apple... or that an apple looks like an apple, but feels like an orange... but completely different if an apple can change to different fruit at will (Fire orange, banana bonanza, peachy keen, fine lime)... to me, that completely trivializes Transgenderism (relatively speaking)... but the self-identification thing and Transgenderism are two different concepts...

A trans-qualifier, at least as accepted by psych/med, is for those who suffering from gender dysphoria... but self-identification goes beyond that and creates an even bigger umbrella... it means we can change at will, which theoretically can mean, as often as one would prefer... it makes defining things more ambiguous, and I think if we're heading that direction, then other things can start to lose their original definition... because after all, the only qualifier is that we self-identity or "feel" a certain way that day... is a bit different than saying, well this person is transgender... because they have gender dysphoria... as I wrote above, I really disagree with this concept because it trivializes the footwork that legitimate trans-folk have to go through to find peace with their own identity... if it were as simple as a switch, hey I'm not feeling a certain way today I'll change my mind, then the discussion would be null...

I don't think the concept of self-identification is the problem. I just don't think it should be law is all... a trans-person who is struggling with a real disconnect, that's much easier to accommodate... and easier for society to create social barriers that make sense for all folk...

So anyway, it was just an ironic comment... we're discussing how feminism is concretely in support of certain movements, has these political positions, is within these belief systems, this that and the other thing... is ironic considering that a great deal of folk who have that belief also support self-identification and a gender-spectrum... which sort of undermines the premise of defining things concretely to certain criterium... :laugh:

Hope that makes sense, Ammi... if not, no worries ... it's just me discussing a side-topic and other mind-dumping (as usual) :spin: ...

Yeah spot on NM, it's common sense

what actually is a feminist?

I believe a feminist to be someone who demands equality in the workplace, equality of opportunity and the belief that women should be free to live their life without having some git you don't know slap your arse. In a nutshell...

For daring to speak out on this issue, Posie has now been doxxed, photos of her children exposed online, and her address and such. Police are involved. But its par for the course when dealing with narcissistic males (not meaning India there, its the transactivists shes pissed off)

You don't know India's life when she was a successful white male, so you're not qualified to reach the conclusion that her experience is comparable to being a "real" woman. Nor can my perception be changed by the fact that some people who face transsexuality suffer depression. I sympathise, but I don't believe their depression will end by insisting everyone pretends they are exactly the same as those of us born as women.

You may have seen in my post that I have nothing at all against transsexual women. But they are just that, trans women. They are not the same as me. And like I said, although they are worth as much and are just as entitled to be happy and to full rights under the law as you have mentioned, they are not women in the sense that I am. I hope India has wonderful life. I wish her no ill will. But she is different from me.

Women have been oppressed for centuries. And just as we're getting some kind of equality, men are dictating to us what we should call ourselves, and that any man who identifies as a woman should be regarded as one.

I have never seen a female to male transsexual crusade on the telly, or anywhere else, insisting that they are "real men". And I believe that is because men are used to being heard and demanding things.

With respect, Marshy... she spent her whole time in the BB house saying "I'm a REAL woman!".

TBQFH I feel jealous of anyone who is as "privileged" as this lady, to actually feel anything at all about these issues which are realistically just paranoid ****ing nonsense with literally ZERO evidence base, because I sort of feel like she can't have many legitimate problems going on in their life whatsoever.

Well. She didn't until she did this. It sounds like she does now :umm2:

.

I can see the woman's point. I don't actually see trans people the same as women, either. To be fair, as a heterosexual female, it doesn't really matter to me if a woman is a lesbian, or if a guy wants to be a woman, since anyone not an unmarried heterosexual male is not something I'd be interested in as other than a friend. But the thing is, people who were raised as men, even if they thought themselves female, have been socialized with all the advantages males are given when they are socialized as males in our society. They will always have those advantages, even if they remove their penises. They still act like men in ways that really matter (outside of the bedroom). Just look at India as an example. India constantly interrupted other women, talked constantly with that condescending attitude virtually all men have (and women don't). I mean, you can change your sex organs, but you're still the same person inside.

So sorry to disagree with the masses on this one. I'm not that bothered, though, about trans people. I feel that they can be good or bad, depending on the person, just like everyone else. I just don't think they're quite the same as people who were born a woman. (It's like the difference between someone who is straight or gay. They may have the same gender, but there's not that much real overlap).

We're discussing this debate though in which, quite the opposite to her usual self, India was calm and reasonable in her responses.

I didn't watch most of that series so I can't comment.

Sexist and factually incorrect comment. People can be condescending, people of all variations. Genders and sexes, however, cannot.

Well, as this isn't a court and I can take previous behaviour into account to inform my judgement, she DID spend the whole time wailing that she's a REAL woman and got very upset when a much younger man didn't want to kiss her... assuming it was because she's transsexual when in actuality it may well have been because she was too old for him. Even India herself said toward the end of her stint that she had played it all wrong. And she wasn't calm and reasonable, she interrupted constantly.

And yes, she was quite calm and reasonable. But then when she was a man she had a career in broadcast television.

One thing I've noticed... it's quite telling that the strongest posts, with the worst slurs against the "feminist", are from men.

Excellent points, Chero. Great post.

Haven't seen much outrage about this on this thread... in fact a couple of the posts seem to intimate that some people are okay with someone (almost exclusively women) who has an opinion that differs, your WHOLE family can be put at risk. Nice.

I hope the police find them... and they could if they really wanted... and hit them with the full force of the law. And all penises to go to male prisons.

The problem with that video was that it had 2 activists from polar extremes of the discussion. Neither are reflective of the norm and as such, anything they say should be treated with a large pinch of salt in relation to the topic.

Ahhhh… the voice of reason.

Your logic’s wasted on some 17-year-old kid who skips work because “it’s not his fault the job’s boring.” I hear you still.

Of course technically trans women aren't the same as other women, but I don't get why some people continually go on about it. "YOU ARE DIFFERENT FROM ME AND YOU WERE NOT BORN A WOMAN!!!!" Like yeah that's kind of what being trans means. Just all seems a bit pointless and nasty really

Yes, you can, but again, the comment was directed at this debate where she did no such thing.

Key word being "played", it would be hard to tell how much was typical BB housemate theatrics to get attention and how much was genuine.

Secondly, I didn't say she was calm and reasonable in the house, hence why I stated I didn't watch all of her time in the BB house.

I don't think in this instance it's got anything to do with it. Man or woman in broadcast television would be media trained well enough to hold a civil televised debate.

I don't think it is sexist. I think you're living in la la land, if you don't think that the vast majority of women in the world are brought up that men are better, smarter, etc. Women are expected to spend their lives being what men want them to be. That's an overwhelming message coming through right now, and it was even worse when I was growing up. You can't spend the formative years of your life getting these messages, and be the same as someone who didn't. Nothing sexist about saying so. Turn on the TV. How much TV allotment is for men playing sports? How much are those men paid? How much for women? How much are they paid? Am I making sense yet? When women have equal opportunities and are treated equally by the media, that would bea societal start. But even if children are brought up by parents who try to raise their child in a nonsexist way, school and the media will socialize them by their gender.

That's not what you said.

You said men are condescending and women are not. That's incorrect and a sexist statement.

You want to fight sexism, maybe start with your own attitudes.

I've never heard any woman say that except in response to a trans woman saying "I am a real woman! Just like you!"

Hey Red...nice to see you x

How many circumstances in life result in trans women screaming this in the face of cis women?

Firstly, I don't recognise the term 'cis', imposed upon me by people with an agenda.

Every time there's someone on TV campaigning hard for transsexual rights, it's going to be a trans female insisting she's a woman.

Never, ever, heard a female to male do it. Maybe that's why transwoman have SO much support from men?

The fact that the "feminist" in the OP has had death threats and pictures of her children posted online, as happens to a lot of women who stand up against the idea that trans woman and born woman are exactly the same, demonstrates the kind of response born women get when they disagree. Where is the outrage over that? Maybe their not screaming in our faces, but their tactics are ****ing hysterical and outrageous.*

* I have to say I don't find all transwoman to be this way. Just the militants.

Well, cis is a dictionary defined word I used in the correct context.

I don't condone anything that has happened to the "feminist" in the OP. But I daresay the strong response she has received isn't something that women will get in general for having a different opinion, but because she gives that opinion alongside all of her offensive views in her higher profile and militant ways. Just as those trans people who put themselves forward as the campaigners for what they believe in are the ones that get the most abuse too.

Never heard a female to male say it, because they don't need to. Maybe they're more accepted.

That should read the WOMEN who chose to air their strong views. As its only women. The term of abuse, TERF, often accompanied by 'die in a fire' and such...there is no equivalent for men. And the difference you see when men speak out on social media is striking, seriously. This is misogyny. Pure and simple.

Well, I used people because it isn't just one side of the debate receiving abuse. The trans people receive the abuse for their views and campaigning too.

It's not one sided.

I don't think there are many men who speak out about the rights of women/transwomen for me to make any comparison as to their treatment.

It really is :laugh:

Its one side of the debate recieving abuse. Check out the replies under any transactivists twitter post on this topic, for example. Then contrast it with a feminists. And then contrast that with a man saying the same thing as the feminist. Seriously, everyone who thinks this is two way should do this...

Transactivists receive no abuse? Ok, I'll take your word for it.

Tbh terf is literally just trans exclusionary radical fems, can be either Male or female, from what I can tell usually female tho I’ve seen men express trans exclusionary views online and get called it :shrug:

A lot of feminists own this term and call themselves it too lol

Luckily there are many, and more by the day as men wake up to how much of a mens rights movement transactivism is now. And to be clear, I don't mean the likes of India, who has got along quite fine and not many people would have an issue sharing womens loos and such with her as she is post op. Thats not what transactivists are fighting for, infact they call people like India 'truscum'. They are fighting for ANY MAN to have access to womens rights, basically. Which makes womens rights utterly meaningless.

Started as this, has not been this for a long time, most of the people its thrown at are not rad fems anyway. It generally does not get thrown at blokes for the same views (though Graham Lineham of Father Ted fame has been called a terf recently :D), and its almost always accompanied by threats of violence.

https://terfisaslur.com/

Not been updated for a while...but gives an idea of what it means these days. Just aniother misogynistic slu7r. Also check out the cotton ceiling section. Shows how homophobic transactivists are too...even Stonewall back that.

Yeah, this is the point everyone seem to be just ignoring