Caitlin Jenner was never considered a hero :joker:

Actually yes , as I said my son is the first to tell me how wrong I am on this...jog on manchild!

Only men that agree with you are allowed a voice then? Cause that’s what I’m getting here, none of you seem to have an issue with any of the men who are arguing the same side as you, it’s weird how you preach you’re being silenced yet diminish the opinion of people who don’t agree with you based on their gender, funny that

Was he able to explain why you're wrong?

Bruce was.

It used to be trans women and women...then it was transwomen and cis women...now the goalposts have moved again and its women as a collective, thats a not a good move for women born as women in my view

I think to call a spade a spade here... When I see clashes across the media and the biggest contributers to each side of that argument are women on one side, and gay men on the other (a group who for the most part have far less vested interest in women than any other, to be blunt), and the argument is about women's rights... It seems fairly obvious which side I should be listening to in greater depth... And again to be blunt: you'd (I assume) completely understand that if it was about any other group. If a racial group for example was standing up and saying "Listen, this is how this actually affects us, these are our worries" and the response of a completely unrelated group with no skin in the game whatsoever was "Shut up you hateful scum!"... Well. I suspect you'd see the issue, then.

No attempt at all made to actually discuss or ease the fears of women, many of whom have very real personal reasons to be afraid. Just "shut up and stop getting in the way TERF". It's honestly a horrendous attitude.

It seems to be women and "people with a cervix " or "mensturaters" so transwomen are women and women are a bodily function or body part. Men are still just men though.... odd that

Exactly. I wonder if Liam will actually reply to your post this time or is it just the women he likes to lecture and "educate" about ourselves and our rights?

Right, so you’ve just confirmed what I’ve said then, men that don’t agree with the likes of Jk, especially gay men it seems, aren’t going to be listened to, great discussion that is for sure, very balanced, very equal.

Also, by your example, nobody is listening to trans people in this debate, the only ones who are being highlighted like you enjoy reminding us are the looney ones who show themselves up and they’re being used as an example to tar the entire demographic to further the anti-trans agenda, JK herself didn’t this on Twitter yesterday when she posted examples of support for her, censoring out the name of said supporter, but blasting someone’s out because they disagreed with her, knowing full well what she was going to send their way.

There are genuine concerns about an incredibly tiny percentage of people that could possibly abuse a loophole in the system, but I genuinely don’t believe that that’s what the majority of this is about anymore, it started off as genuine questions being asked, but i believe that it’s been turned into a full on which hunt against an already marginalises part of society, based off of ignorance and bigotry and I’ll continue to think that until I see something that changes my mind.

I haven’t lectured or tried to educate anybody, I’m just sharing my opinion on the matter like everybody else, it’s not my fault you don’t like people, especially men, disagreeing with you

Great post TS.

I mean I don't actually understand why you think it's more likely that women just hate transwomen than actually being concerned about our rights, our safety and fairness towards ourselves?

Literally no one refers to women this way in real life. We need to stop acting like niche examples that get blown out of proportion on social media are the new reality.

The whole anti-trans argument is based entirely off of minority examples that are blown up and sent around to spread fear and ignorance around trans people, it blows my mind, it’s like Facebook has actually infected people

You're right, I don't like people ESPECIALLY men telling me what a woman is and what I should be comfortable with in terms of sex based rights

Another thing I genuinely worry about is, gender ideology has become so all-encompassing that I have to wonder where the support for gay teenagers and young people has gone? It's an absolute shambles in school. My daughter (who had thus far only shown any interest in girls) has been told its biggotted not to consider non-binary males. Not even trans girls... Non-binary kids who present as 100% male. Another message that is gaining traction is that "anyone who doesn't identify as male who likes anyone else who doesn't identify as male is lesbian". Two biological boys, who present as male, but identify as non-binary, in a relationship, are supposedly lesbian. Now I don't doubt this is down to some inevitable young-teen confusion about terminologies but where is the concerns for what an absolute mind **** this is for "plain old" gay kids both girls and boys?? Nowhere to be seen in the current LGBT mindset is my experience.

There's also a boy in her class, literally only out as gay for 6 months, who has now been completely shunned by "the community" because there's a trans-boy who quite simply looks entirely female that likes him, but he said he's not interested because he's gay. Not allowed. He's a bigot now. Hes had people refer to him as a "genital fetishist". A 13 year old boy! Who has just come out as gay. Absolute shambles.

Now... I do honestly understand that older gay men potentially don't know about the issues that young gay people are facing at the moment trying to tackle the mess of poorly defined gender ideologies. Why and how would they know?

My concern though is that they don't particularly care. I've spoken before about how there used to be an LGBT group at my daughter's school but now there effectively is not, because it's all trans and non-binary. The gay kids have their own unofficial hangouts. Their "old fashioned" sexuality has no place at the official group. Utterly depressing.

The acceptable collateral damage for unwavering support of the gender zeitgeist extends to young gay people as well as adult women.

Lets not forget though; adult gay men can still confidently assert that they love penis and that's that. And it's fine. And if anyone has an issue with that, they're a homophobe, and should go and hang out with the other bigots such as the genital-fetishist lesbians who only want to date people with vaginas.

Women's health information isn't real life?

Okay, so you don’t like men having opinions on this matter, if they don’t agree with you, glad that’s established, not very equal of you

Is the only opinion one can have on this topic the definition of what a woman is or is not? Because I'm plenty opinionated on this topic but I don't think I've tried to define that anywhere.

On women's rights? [emoji2368]

Not in your opinion obviously.

However according to this article the award was initially seen as hugely positive.

It's noted how you gave no other comment on my points..I see TS however you responder to fully. Hmm? Unconscious bias?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox...overnor-recall

At least younceed that this fringe element (the dangerous fringe element, that people have genuine concerns about) exists. You'd face some harsh criticism for that concession out in the open.





Violence against women stats prove without a shadow of a doubt that its not just "possible" that any loophole will be exploited by dangerous men. It will be. It already has been. It will snowball if not treated carefully. People come under fire just for saying "please treat this carefully". I wish I lived in a world where these stats weren't clear but they are.


Even if that's entirely true, does it negate those genuine questions that were asked initially? Do those no longer matter because of a hijack?

Unconscious bias?

Do you want bullet points in response to all of your comments or what?

I get accused of lecturing if I reply to women and now I’ve got an unconscious bias against them when I don’t reply to everything you say :joker:

The awarding of the award to a trans woman was an incredibly positive step yes, but not because it was Caitlyn Jenner, her status as the new face of trans was refuted right from the beginning

This just shows how ignorant you are on this issue. You've reduced a valid point to an hysterical response to comments on social media.

People don't refer to women as 'people with a cervix' but that appears to be the blanket term being advocated in certain spheres.

for me, i think the question needs to be asked. Why do trans women feel its necessary to tear down the protections that have been put in place for women. Why do they want access to their safe spaces for example, why do they want to compete in their sporting competitions when they are clearly at an unfair physical advantage.

If people can start giving proper answers to these questions it would be a good start

JK retweeted this...

Well if you replied with anything other than mocking joker emojis then you might be taken seriously when responding to the concerns of women.

My point was that step wouldn't have happened initially if taken by anyone else.. she had the money and the media gravitas to make it happen. It propelled trans issues into the spotlight instantly.
There was an element of hero worship about it as I remember well on here...it was discussed at length and the majority of the comments were massively supportive mirrored by the trans community.

This is the crux of it really, it's the idea that essentially it's considered by women's rights groups that hard won protections are being usurped.

You can't protect the rights of one group by eroding the rights of another and not expect some valid pushback.

Personally I don't think that Niamh is Transphobic tbf.

Imo it's a tricky subject to solve without harming the rights of either group, imo everyone should be demanding that the Government comes up with a solution that pleases both sides rather than forcing either side to do something that most of them aren't comfortable doing.

And name calling isn't gonna help either I feel.

There is no way to please everyone, the only answer is ever compromise but unfortunately a large section of trans rights activism, and a section that's gaining significant traction with legislators and governments, simply won't accept that any compromise on this should never, ever, for any reason, place "individual comfort" or "desire for acceptance" above genuine physical safety concerns. That's the crux of what has women, IMO quite rightly, concerned about their rights and safety. The refusal to conceed that there IS a problem at all (and again I'll just say it; a rhetoric that comes prescribed straight from organisations like Stonewall) has inevitably lead to anger. It's gaslighting :shrug:. Concerns that dangerous men will use new legislation to gain access to victims is met with "no never!" or at best "maybe but there's no proof of that". It's a flat out lie. They will, they do, they have.

I'm gonna put this in a crude way, and I honestly don't mean to be offensive to non-binary males when I say this, but if your Daughter is a Lesbian the School has to accept that she isn't gonna be sexually attracted to someone with a Penis, it's that simple.

I'm with you on this Toy Soldier, gay/lesbian kids should still be supported, and they certainly shouldn't be made to feel uncomfortable about who they feel sexually attracted to, it's kinda prejudiced in it's own right.

I think that a middle ground approach needs to be taken.

Like in Sports for example why not have a third tier where Transwomen and Ciswomen (that are comfortable with taking on Transwomen in these events) take part, whilst the Ciswomen who aren't comfortable with taking on Transwomen in Sports still get to keep their version of the Sport.

When it comes to predators abusing the system with things like the Bathrooms etc I have no idea what should happen to try to solve that issue.

Nah sportspeople should just compete as their actual sex.

If you don't believe sportspeople should be put at a physical disadvantage (which I agree with), then sending trans people back to fight or run against men after taking estrogen is exactly what you're suggesting. The same way you want "women" loaded up with testosterone to go and fight other women. It's just nonsense.

that bloke in USA swimming is a disgrace to sport and how he can brass neck his way to victory is actually disgusting

Women who take performance-enhancing drugs are generally kicked out of sports anyway, so why should trans-identifying women be any different? I don't think men who deplete their own strength are penalised per say, but if they're damaging their own performance by altering their body chemistry, then it's their own fault if they can no longer make the cut.

I don't think there's an answer to the sports issue. Trans women who were born male are at a distinct advantage in women's sports, but will be unable to compete in male physical sports at a high level after taking hormones. Conversely, Trans men who were born female are at a distinct advantage in women's sports because of the performance enhancing effects of testosterone - but its never going to be to the extent where they can compete in male sports. Both end up in a sort of middle ground. But there's (for obvious reasons) no desire for a 3rd category.

As I see it, unfortunately giving up competitive sport probably just has to be seen as a cost of transitioning. It doesn't mean people can't play sports as a hobby, but there's no way that it can be in ranked competition in the name of fairness. The evidence of the physical advantage is overwhelming.

Exactly TS, it is unfortunate but you can't sacrifice fairness and safety for women to accommodate a minority of people, I say you "can't " but I guess it should have been "shouldn't " because that's exactly what is happening

That's their own fault :joker: if they're serious about their sports, they should forsake the hormones and compete against the other men to the best of their ability.

Quite. The only "fair" way for the transmen themselves and the other women would be of they didn't medically transition, and stayed in the women's divisions.