Doesn't it just show how crap the debate is when it takes a school kid to inject any enthusiasm into it :shrug:

I don't know if it's lack of enthusiasm for the most, more like a slow burner for me.
So much dross to wade through on both sides, I suppose it will come down to who you believe going by their personality with the politician or better still how believable the 'real' people come across.:shrug:
Early days yet BOTS.

'I once asked Rupert Murdoch why he was so opposed to the European Union. 'That’s easy,' he replied. 'When I go into Downing Street they do what I say; when I go to Brussels they take no notice.'

http://indy100.independent.co.uk/art...t--WyMaFTE890x

I've been very vocal with my opinion and the research I've personally done and so I don't think its just some random fly away comment.

If all the things you highlight were certainties, then I would possibly sign the 'out' vote but they aren't certainties, they are hopes, possibilities and even likelihoods and therefore an alternative could just as likely happen.

But coming out of the EU isn't just about rights of foreigners or rights of trade. I'm hugely concerned about our rights of liberty/human rights. I really don't want to live in a land that has no anchor on "the all seeing EYE". I don't trust a neoliberal government that has this urge to tamper with the magna carta on its route to rule Britannia.

This is merely a debate. I'm a voice amongst voices and its unlikely anyone at all will take much notice of me. I'm not here to campaign and if I speak to someone who wishes to sway my view, then they have to answer all of my questions, of which I have many.

We know for certain that the EU is a failing, undemocratic disaster. Is that not a reason for change?

Hope is better than no hope.

Hang on there appears to be a distinct 'ooh look over there, something funny is going on'!
Have you noticed we are reducing our MPs from 650 to 600, is this gerrymandering not undemocratic?
The news today is the accidental disclosure of information caused the foreign secretary to attack an MP as a 'sh*t'.
This proves we know what they want us to know and no more.

What is important to you personally, is it your pay packet?
Then my advice would be in.

'Workers’ rights are under threat if Britain leaves the European Union, Labour’s shadow Business Secretary has said.

Angela Eagle warned that EU-backed principles like paid holidays and equal pay were “on the ballot paper” in the In-Out referendum on 23 June.

Ms Eagle warned that many Conservatives who wanted to leave the bloc wanted to scrap the rights and said Labour voters would be key to the Remain vote.'

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a6901146.html

In in in in in in in in in in in in

The difference being that this girl actually made a point which the politicians on the panel had no answer too. The more than 1,000 schoolchildren you are talking about just took part in an online poll to say in or out without any explanation.

Do I detect agression in this response Red? My questions were perfectly legitimate and were posed by me because I am genuinely puzzled by what you mean - not as any kind of attack on you personally.

I have not even mentioned immigration or the rights of 'Foreigners' - yet - so I do not understand your comment here either.

There are 11 members on here thus far who have voted 'Remain' but up to now I have seen very little by way of contribution to this debate from the 'In' crowd - yourself and the ever dependable Joey apart - and very little reasons WHY they believe we should remain in.

I have been carrying out a full property modernisation for the past 7 weeks and have frequented 2 hitherto unfamiliar cafes and 1 hitherto unfamiliar Fish and Chip shop for lunch breaks, and as a result, I have become involved in quite lenghty but amicable discussions with owners and customers alike concerning the imminent EU Referendum.

For the most part, these were well educated people- some quite eloquent - but almost to a man THEY did not understand the EU, it's history, and its good and bad impact on the UK, and nor had they ever heard of The Rotterdam Effect or a host of other complexities such as the farcical con of 'Fishing Quotas' and the European Union’s corrupt Common Fisheries Policy (CFP).

I did not PREACH. I informed and discussed.

As the next few weeks passed more and more of those strangers approached me to tell me that they had been busy researching the EU and were now 'OUT' voters.

Thus - in the real world - ordinary people DO NEED to be informed and guided - though what they deduce from all the complex and contradictory B.S. out there is up to them.

The few benefits to the UK which can be attributed to the EU - such as the Working Time Directive - are heavily, heavily, outweighed by the infinite damage and bad things the EU is responsible for.

"Who Cares About Business"?

Well if we remain on the good ship 'EU' which is sinking fast, we will go down with it, and Working Time Directives are not a bit of good when there are NO businesses left employing people.

In any event, the WTD and other existing laws will not be easy for any UK Government to repeal EVEN if we do leave the EU.

9 out of 10 leading economists disagree, we have had no mention of WTDs, were there some assurances then that would be beneficial and yet, nothing.

Not at all, in fact I wrote that after my early morning yoga class. I'm as cool as a cucumber :hee: We know the written words a dangerous tool. I equally read aggression when you said, "Would you mind explaining just what you mean by this? It is the easiest thing in the world to make claims such as this, but could you just list your reasons for making such a claim?

I know but I was talking generally. I quoted your post because you wanted to know why I'd say something like that and my answer came back as a general answer, not an accusational one towards you.
Not everyone has the inclination to politically express themselves. These sort of debates can become very heated and some people prefer to remain out of the spotlight.

I work with a bright bunch of people and they all voice whether we should be IN, OUT or not decided yet but over half of them haven't taken enough interest to learn about what could happen if we leave or what will happen if we stay. They are just not interested enough and that's fine, I'm not interested in some of the things they're passionate about.

Well there ya go! If you can spark an interest then I metaphorically doff my hat to you. We do though, have to accept when people don't want to listen or have an opposing view (even if their view is based on collective ignorance). As frustrated as we may feel at wasting our breath, its our own expectations that let us down, not theirs.
I'll try and respond to your last quote later but we are off out for a cycle now.

What was her point,was it immigration or the minimum wage? I felt it was hazy.

I assume her point is the same as what Nigel Farage has been saying for years, an Australian style points system, bringing in the best people the World has to offer, not just anybody who's available in Europe.

That's what I made of it anyway.

What has that to do with an in out referendum? There is no assurance that issue will be addressed out of the EU, in fact it could signify immigration being expanded freely worldwide couldn't it?
If we were to take a seat in the WTO, there may be some provision to make free movement a condition of free trade.
The implications are not known are they so why is it so attractive a prospect?

How desperate and sinister is this?...

'The European Union is an explicit political project designed by a former communist, Iain Duncan Smith has said.

The Work and Pensions Secretary, a eurosceptic, said it was important for the British public to realise that the EU was not about trade – but political integration.

He highlighted the contribution of Altiero Spinelli, a political theorist and former European Commissioner, to the founding to the EU.'

'The late Mr Spinelli is one of 11 officially recognised founding fathers of the European Union; other include former British Prime Minister Winston Churchill, who called for the creation of a United States of Europe.'
'Mr Spinelli died in 1986, seven years before the actual creation of the European Union.'


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a6901211.html

"If we were to take a seat in the WTO" ??????

We have been a WTO member since 1 January 1995.

And ANY suggestion that the UK leaving the EU COULD lead to an INCREASE in immigration to these shores is pure baloney.

Once WE regain control of our OWN borders AND laws, we can also properly control just who comes here.

GENUINE refugees will NEVER be turned away, but SOME of the endless swarm of 'so called' 'Economic Migrants', bogus 'Asylum Seekers' and covert 'Jihadists' WILL find us much less of an accomodating 'soft touch' at the expense of our own citizens.

What is more, the tens of billions of pounds saved will not only FUND more rigorous border policing, but will help raise our standards of care for BOTH Bona Fide Refugees AND those of our own citizens who are in need.

IDS was Very Positive on Marr BBC1

As the UK not as the EU Kirk, why so many question marks are you really that confused?
Excuse me if a don't take on board your descriptor 'baloney' as an appropriate counter to my query.
You can't preempt what will happen once we are out of the EU with regard you can envisage a dads army titles scenario however I can't see that as being realistic.

This Vote is not a Westminster Bubble
its every town and village and fish port
to Vote they way they wish.

The problem is the folks that are not
sure to vote In or Out, they
need to Shake it All About

Sorry Kirk, but that has NOTHING to do with being in or out of Europe. We do not take economic migrants and jihadists that originated from outside europe now, only those who are registered EU residents, and that doesn't include and has never included anyone without an EU originating passport

Here's a brick wall for you to talk to Kirk

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/i...TjQSSVlYU3UldK

The EU is not and never has been about democracy and that's why I'm at pains to protect it. The reassurances I have are, the EU has brought about a union where there was once conflict and by doing that, its been able to keep conflict at bay. If the EU gives us nothing else, it makes us a robust 'state' and I think we all take that very much for for granted.

I love having the right to live and work anywhere within Europe and there's millions of us who enjoy that privilege but I hate the way Europe seems to be gravitating into a type of economical Yankee race to the bottom.

Do you really believe the government (our present one) would follow the legal doctrine of the EU when it comes to things like the WTD? We've had years of Cameron stomping his feet when the EU have heavy handedly told him he can't do this or that and its always been over some new legislation him and his quack doctors are plotting and something that will inevitably make the blue collar worker poorer still. The EU have thus protected the working people of Britain from a government that is neither fair nor just to a good percentage of its people.

There's been numerous occasions during Camerons time in office when he's made blatant noises about leaving the Union. That man's been playing with fire for years and so its little wonder half his cabinet are now voting against his wishes. He's directly responsible for stirring up this hornets nest in the first place. The sadist in me enjoys the pain he's presently suffering because its well deserved.

Yes but we would have the capacity to take in more genuine refugees if we leave the EU as we wont be flooded with EU migrants which could evently expand to hundreds of thousands of Turks if they joined.

:laugh: I feel it is you who are confused Kizzy. You stated "If we were to take a seat in the WTO" So what else can you mean by the word; 'We' other than, 'we in the United Kingdom'? To which my response was perfectly correct in pointing out that 'we' have been a member of the WTO since the 1st of Januaury 1995.

You are being deliberately infantile with your comments in the rest of your post.

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

The thing about EU migrants is, we are a part of them. Millions of Brits are economic migrants that may have no choice but to return to Britain if we are no longer part of the EU and so yes, we make it more and more restrictive for the Spanish to live and work here and Spain makes it more and more restrictive for us to live and work there. The numbers returning will make up for the numbers leaving but that still won't leave that room you talk about for "genuine refugees/asylum seekers.