Maybe cant see a superior being with the naked eye, just as we cant see black holes either? The Bible is a book of parables, ancient stories going back 1000s of years partly historical partly symbolic, a book of enormous value to those who respect and value it. A book which can be interpreted many different ways. One can learn life lessons in morality, in immorality, lessons on repentence, forgiveness, enlightenment, etc if more people read it and wrestled with moral quandaries , questions on ethics and understanding , we would become a more evolved species. the majority of great scientists were religious, there is no need for any battle between science and religion. The 2 can work hand in glove, we will need a little faith to find peace in the world and go on more journeys into the unknown universe of space and time

we can do all that without religion and are doing it.

you can also say all that about the works of Shakespeare

Wait......someone actually admitting they were wrong in an SD thread? :omg: It's some kind of modern day miracle.....if this doesn't prove that God exists I don't know what will.

See i can accept all of this.The bible can be guide for people which i have absolutely nothing against.I am not anti religion.

However does it confirm the existence of god,heaven or hell?
No it confirms the existence of some very good moral story tellers back in Roman times.

No we cant, at least not to the same degree. we can gain knowledge and understanding from all walks of life, INCLUDING religion. Religion is the only arena dedicated fully to wrestling moral issues. The work the Christian churches do for the impoverished is unparalleled in the history of humankind. It would be insane to throw that away on the back of anti Christian bigotry. Sheakspeares work is totally separate and we can also learn from that too. so what?

well er no

the work that science and medicine has done for the impoverished is unparalleled in the history of humankind.

what churches have done is minuscule in comparison and bares no comparison

Yes thankyou to everyone who has jumped in the thread who has no idea that referring to council estates, a few people and ungodliness is in fact a generalisation.

Fine blame me, as kazanne said.
'Just because you cant see something , doesn't mean it's not there.'
In I have been out for hours and hours and you're STILL chewing this over, and you say I'm pedantic? Sheeesh!
Would it sit better if I said 'in my opinion' it was a generalisation?

why do yous ee the 2 separate subject sas mutually exclusive, both have achieve enormous things for humankind ...for centuries.
Christianity has raised more money than any organization in history and given people faith
Christianity has also given faith to billions of people, many of whom were scientists , science is a journey into the unknown and requires a certain degree of faith.
both add massively to our existence on this planet.
I doff my hat respectively to them all.

Why don't you ask him to swear on the bible that apology is sincere... I bet he'll struggle ;)

The Gospel according to Kirk:

L.T. Said:

"So Jaimie how do you reconcile the fact that in general when a country develops and educates its population religion dwindles and the fact that the most religious countries by far are the least developed?

Its not hard to look at say India or Norway or Nigeria and France

Educate the people and the need for gods is massively reduced."

Which Kirk interprets as:

Poorly educated people from a lower social class and environment, are more prone to believe in a God than more educated people from superior environments.

Whether L.T means that this is because such people are easier for 'Organised Religion' leaders to 'brainwash' and 'condition', or whether such people have such pitiful and miserable existences that they are more 'desperate' to 'believe' that there HAS to be a better life in the hereafter, is not clear.

MARSH Said:

"The correlation between education and religion is an interesting one.

In my own experience, having grown up on a council estate in and mixed with some shall we say "rough" people (like really rough). They've always been the types to laugh at religion and anything like it."

Which Kirk interprets as:

"Yes, an interesting statement L.T. but my own direct experience of poorly educated people from a lower social class and environment - ie; the really rough council estate where I grew up - are that, those type of people are not only the very ones who are less prone to believe in a God, but are also the very type to to totally reject religion and actually mock those who do believe."

KAZ Said:

"You DO make a good point Marsh,thinking about it,I know a few rough diamonds and none of them are religious in any way,they are ferrel ,uncaring and hostile."

Which Kirk interprets as:

"Yes, Marsh, that has been my experience too with some poorly educated people from a lower social class and environment."

Now WHAT is so WRONG with either Marsh's point or Kaz's?

They are speaking from their OWN DIRECT EXPERIENCES and there can be NO BETTER EVIDENCE.

:shrug:

having grown up on a council estate in and mixed with some shall we say "rough" people (like really rough). They've always been the types to laugh at religion and anything like it.

I'm not getting into another back and forth, but for clarification this is my interpretation.

I saw this to mean council residents in general, otherwise who are 'they'?

Maybe that's why they aren't finding them ;)

speak for yourself love. Millions of people search for something more and find it in faith.

I've found him! :spin:
http://roughtimesnews.co.uk/wp-conte...ron-Christ.png

JejejejejejajajajajaHAHAHAHAHlolololoroflroflrflrf olmaroflmaohehehehehe...:notimpressed: laugh now you won't be on judgement day.

THEY - as in; "the rough people (like really rough)" that Marsh has 'grown up with' and 'mixed with' ON THE COUNCIL ESTATE where he 'grew up' -- As opposed to; "They" meaning ALL people SPECIFICALLY from council estates as you are so desperately and continually and wrongly inferring.

'ROUGH and REALLY ROUGH' are the OPERATIVE words here, NOT COUNCIL ESTATE.

I do not give 2 flying fecks who believes me or not, and I will not try to explain, for the very simple reason that those who believe already UNDERSTAND, and those who do not believe, will NEVER understand, but I KNOW MY GOD IS REAL.

He brings me peace when I am troubled. He brings me resolutions to my problems, and my PRAYERS are ALWAYS answered, whether immediately - as is often the case - or in time. And YES, sometimes HE truly works in MYSTERIOUS WAYS, but ALWAYS, HIS decision is for the best.

When it comes down to it Kirk, that is all that really matters.
Your belief is your belief.

If the council estate has no relevance I'm wondering why it was brought into the discussion. I don't feel the generalisation was directed only at rough people but that is only my opinion I don't care who agrees or who feels I'm wrong quite frankly.
I don't appreciate being drawn out on it, I've stated how I see it and explained why.

If you read through the thread you will see why it was brought up. It was in direct response to another post regarding education and religion and Marsh ' s personal experiences from where he was brought up and experiences he has had. Nothing generalised about council estates per se...just the one he has lived on and the people he has met

I have Annie, I haven't just jumped in at random points or anything.
Again to clarify in my opinion I felt there was a direct correlation being drawn between council estates, rough people and lack of faith.
Whoever feels this is a misunderstanding I simply don't care, I saw it as a generalisation, have heard nothing to change that view thus still feel it was/is.

Fair enough, I wasn't suggesting you had jumped in. if that is your interpretation, of course you are entitled to that. I was merely trying to give a slightly unbiased opinion. I respect your post and will not labour my views any more :love:

I'll take that bet!

Probably will struggle though... in so much that I'm not sure where I'd actually find one to swear on. A church maybe? Do churches just have them lying about these days? But they're all locked at night... hmmmm... Wait! I know! A hotel!! Hotels ALWAYS have a bible in the room. Actually hold on a minute... the last few times I've been in a hotel there hasn't been one. It's probably considered a jihad-trigger these days or something.

Buy one? Do you buy bibles? And where? It seems sort of wrong that they'd be for sale... ... ... and which bible shop is going to be open at this time?

Ugh. Maybe Kirk would send me one of his? He probably has like 20, various editions with various translations and such. I can't ask Truth, he only has one and it's covered in this weird sticky gunk... I don't even know... it smells like ammonia.

Which is the best bible to swear on? Is there a heirarchy of bibles?

WAIT! I've got it!!

http://www.bible.com

...there's an app! I can just get the app and swear on my phone! Hooraaay, I shall do this post-haste.

(tl;dr = I'll swear anything you want on the bible or any other book you can think of, because it's words on woodpulp. Utterly meaningless.)

[edited to add] ...In my opinion :hee:

Thanks Annie :love: