THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE MULDER

:dance::dance::dance::dance::cheer2::cheer2:cheer2 ::cheer2:

The leader of the Conservative MEPs in the European Parliament - who helped broker David Cameron’s renegotiation package - has said he wants to leave the EU.

In a symbolic blow to the 'in In Campaign' and Mr Cameron, Syed Kamall said he believed that “on balance we could forge a better future outside” the bloc. The top Tory in Brussels said that he thought the Prime Minister’s EU renegotiation had given the UK a “better deal” but that it was not good enough for him to stay in.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a6925241.html

[QUOTE=joeysteele;8558192]Actually that is not substantiated with respect,we do not know at all if half the people have had enough, we will need to wait and see how everyone votes to gain that knowledge.QUOTE]
That's a fair point, what I should have said, from what I'm hearing, is, The majority of people.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-35771805

[QUOTE=Alf;8558273]Which again with respect is not the likely case, and indeed will not be known as a fact until the votes have been actually cast.
Even all polling at present, not that I take any notice of those now, indicate in no way the majority want out at this time.

So we really haven't a clue what the result will be,I feel that I haven't a clue where the majority view lies, as someone who wants to stay in.
So I cannot see how you with respect. or the other 'out' people, have any more info than I and others have,even the political pundits.

Where is Graylings proof that leaving the EU will create jobs and not lose them.
There is nothing in what he says that can or does guarantee that.

However in the EU we know for a fact there are masses of jobs linked to the EU as a fact.

Grayling is just spouting the same line we are getting all the time from the out camp,with nothing to substantiate in any way his and their claims.
It's all again, ifs maybes, possibilities,no certainties.

Until he can demonstrate with substantiated facts that more jobs will be created if we leave, then what he says is meaningless.
Whereas we know now that jobs have been created via our membership of the EU.

Of course hard times will come staying in, difficult things to get over, as we have had to do over the last few decades,being in the EU we have got over those difficult times and harder times too.
So we know from past events we can do so if we find ourselves in difficulty again in the future while in the EU.

What we have no idea of at all is how we would or in fact could even deal with such harder times or difficult times if out.
So Grayling like the others in the out camp are telling us nothing of any assured certainty as to that.
Until they do all they say is possibles,ifs and maybes with likely more don't knows than anything else.

You don't and cannot build a Nations future around those ifs and uncertainties, not in this modern World now.

[QUOTE=joeysteele;8558309]Where is Graylings proof that leaving the EU will create jobs and not lose them.
There is nothing in what he says that can or does guarantee that.

With respect Joey - You keep IGNORING the many facts which I have posted and keep insisting on the 'OUT' Campaigners providing ABSOLUTE PROOF of what will occur outside the EU but such is IMPOSSIBLE to furnish because NO ONE KNOWS the future.

The 'OUT' campaigners 'BEST GUESTIMATES' about what MAY happen if we leave the corrupt EU is as equally as valid as those of the 'In' campaigners, but there is one VERY IMPORTANT difference between the two camps when it comes to JUSTIFYING their stance:

The 'OUT' Campaigners have irrefutable PROOF of 42 YEARS OF THE EU BEING DAMAGING TO THE UK IN EVERY WAY POSSIBLE: FINANCIALLY TO THE TUNE OF 100's OF BILLIONS, ECONOMICALLY, WITH THE DECIMATION OF OUR FARMING AND FISHING INDUSTRIES etc. etc. etc.

THE 'IN' Campaigners WANT to stay in IN SPITE OF THE EVIDENCE OF THE PAST 42 YEARS.

However in the EU we know for a fact there are masses of jobs linked to the EU as a fact.

Will you please post corroboration of this "fact" concerning "masses of jobs linked to the EU" Joey?

"Grayling is just spouting the same line we are getting all the time from the out camp,with nothing to substantiate in any way his and their claims.
It's all again, ifs maybes, possibilities,no certainties.

"Until he can demonstrate with substantiated facts that more jobs will be created if we leave, then what he says is meaningless."

This is just repetitition of your first paragraph Joey.

"Whereas we know now that jobs have been created via our membership of the EU."

This is just repetitition of your second paragraph Joey.

[B]"Of course hard times will come staying in, difficult things to get over, as we have had to do over the last few decades,being in the EU we have got over those difficult times and harder times too."B]

The above IS SIMPLY NOT TRUE - well attributing our success to us being members of the EU is not true.

WE HAVE ELEVATED OURSELVES IN SPITE OF BEING IN THE EU.

The UK currently ranks as the world's fifth largest economy, overtaking France in Gross Domestic Product in 2014, and is set to become the best performing economy in the western world over the next 15 years according to a report by the Centre for Economics Business and Research.

UK economic growth is set to hit 2.9pc this year - the second fastest in the advanced world after the United States - which means the economy is now 6.1pc larger than its pre-financial crisis peak.

Our deficit has been reduced by almost two thirds as a share of GDP since its peak in 2009-10 and an average of 1,000 extra people per day are in work.

THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BEING A MEMBER OF THE IDIOTIC MUDDLED AND FAILING EU - AND ALL TO DO WITH THE CONSERVATIVE GOVERNMENTS OWN LONG TERM ECONOMIC POLICIES.

IF THIS IS NOT THE REAL TRUTH - THEN WHY WAS THE EURO ZONE GDP IN THE FINAL QUARTER OF 2015 STILL BELOW IT'S PRE-CRISIS PEAK OF EARLY 2008 WHILE THE UK AND NON-EU COUNTRIES SUCH AS the USA, BRAZIL AND INDIA ARE BOOMING?

THE EU IS FAILING AND STAGNANT, AND THIS IS DESPITE A LUCKY BOOST AND A COUPLE OF 'NEAT' TRICKS WHICH HAS BENEFITED THE EURO;

1)Collapsing oil prices have caused energy prices to plummet boosting consumer spending—the main engine of the recovery.

2) The European Central Bank has carried out 'Quantitative Easing' - that nifty trick of 'creating' money to buy financial assets - which, together with the earlier introduction of NEGATIVE interest rates, has kept the euro low and kept it 'weak' thus helping exporters.

ALL THIS - AND STILL THE SHAMBLES OF A EU IS FAILING.

Debt levels across the eurozone continue to rocket, with the monetary bloc’s debt reaching nearly 92% in 2014 - the highest level since the single currency was introduced in 1999.

It is NOT JUST GREECE who are in the SHET - Romania, Croatia, Finland, Spain, Cyprus, Slovenia,, Bulgaria and Estonia have seen their debts rocket.

Even the Italian and French economies are set to be overtaken in the world's new economic order by growth giants of the emerging NON EU world - India and Brazil, and in contrast to the UK, France and Italy are facing "exclusion" from the grouping of the world's advanced economies, said the CEBR.

"You don't and cannot build a Nations future around those ifs and uncertainties, not in this modern World now."

I'm sorry Joey, but ALL THE FACTS are SCREAMING to GET US OUT OF THE MONEY DRAINING, SOVEREINGTY STEALING,, SHAMBLES OF A SINKING SHIP WHICH IS THE EU.

OUT - ANY OTHER DECISION IS MADNESS AND SUICIDE.

[QUOTE=kirklancaster;8558398]

That I have put in bold is the whole point though for me.

We do know that in the future how we will likely deal with problems that occur with our EU partners alongside us, because we have done so for the last 2 decades at least now.

It is not a money draining organisation, we maybe pay too much to be fair but we get a lot back too.
Something the out camp totally ignore.

What we do not know at all is exactly the trade deals we 'will''get if we leave, as opposed to the deals we have in place now, assured for the future.

What we do not know at all,is what tariffs may or will be put on us to trade with the EU in the future if we leave, as opposed to knowing we do not pay many now which is assured.

What we do not know at all is what other conditions we will also have to accept as to trading deals and other EU regulations,as opposed to knowing exactly where we are and what conditions apply now.

What we do not know at all, is what trading deals we can get too as to other Nations outside the EU,whether they will want to deal a bit with us, a fair lot with us or a great deal with us.


Now with respect it is for you and the out camp to spell out what we will get rather than what we have already now which has served the UK rather well for decades, despite the problems and indeed more better terms needed,no one denies that.

However, we know what problems can do to economies and we have seen how while a member of the EU how we have overcome big problems at times.
What we don't know at allis how we will overcome difficulties and problems as and when they arise if out of the EU and again I stress the out camp, tells us nothing at all as to assurances as to how we could and will anyway deal with any such problems and difficulties.

You are only presenting the negatives of the EU, totally ignoring all the good that is also there as to the EU while providing not a scrap, with respect, of evidence or fact of substantiation as to the questions coming out will raise.

In that full absence of such assurances,especially with what we already have with being a member of the EU,then you are asking for a journey to be taken that no one knows the road to really and no one can fully show the full substantiated blueprint for what will for sure happen if we do go on it.

That is what the out camp has to do or why should anyone listen.
The in camp only needs to defend being a member of the EU with all its many faults,because we 'know'what has come before, what things are like now and that we can be able to deal with whatever is thrown at us in the future with our EU partners.

We are hearing nothing at all as to any of that from the out camp,nothing at all.
Just plain EU bashing with no drawing even of the UKs future out of the EU that has any strong facts and assurances to it,that things could even just be held the same as they are now, let alone be any better.
So for me,with all that not knowing,no way would I take a walk with the out camp, not for my Country's future or for the very young of the UK either.
Not a chance, no blank cheques from me at all.

By the way Kirk, I may be repeating myself but look at your own posts please, they are full of the same thing over and over,even what Grayling has said today is just what others have said before too from the out camp.
Now I don't pull you up on your posting and repeating yourself over and over, so kindly refrain from pulling me up as to that.

If on different pages in this thread, you can repeat yourself with your 'out out out' messages,well for sure 100% so can I.

My gut instinct says 'out' and my gut instinct is never wrong ;)

:clap1: :clap1: :clap1:

[QUOTE=joeysteele;8558461]Once again Joey, you are ignoring the facts in my post and merely repeating yourself.

I do not post Joey without corroborating evidence and facts, but with respect, you- and others of the 'In' camp - continue to make statements without any corroborating evidence or facts.

Saying does not make it so.

I would greatly appreciate seeing some genuine data to corroborate all these wonderful benefits - economic or otherwise - which we have enjoyed during our 42 year membership of the wonderful EU.

The EU is the ultimate money laundering scam.

The bloated bastards in Brussels collect collossal sums from the taxpayers of this country, from which they take their huge cut, then what's left is dispersed to other countries - most of who pay less in than us - so we are the feck-pigs of Europe;

We directly subsidise a lot of those EU Migrants and their families who come here to live, and we directly subsidise some of the (predominantly POLISH ) EU migrants children who they leave behind in their own countries, but we ALSO INDIRECTLY SUBSIDE EVERYONE IN THOSE COUNTRIES ANYWAY via our greater payments being diverted to them by the Money Launderers of Brussels.

As for "but we get a lot back too." - are you referring to the 'Rebate' which Thatcher fought for in 1984 after 11 years of NET LOSSES with NO REBATE?

Because if you are, the facts are that:

NOT ONCE IN ALL OUR YEARS OF 'MEMBERSHIP' HAS THE UK GOT OUT MORE THAN WE PUT IN AND BEING IN THE EU HAS BEEN A 'ONE WAY STREET FOR BRITAIN'.

Contributions from Britain to the EU budget have outstripped the benefits received in every single year of membership.

In total since 1979, Britain has paid in about €260 billion (£228 billion). It has received back in benefits just €163 billion (£143 billion).

In 2015 the UK government paid £13 billion to the EU budget, and EU spending on the UK was £4.5 billion. So the UK’s ‘net contribution’ was £8.5 billion.

BUT THIS BEING THE DECEITFUL EU AND THEIR EVEN MORE DECEITFUL UK GOVERNMENT SUPPORTERS, THE REAL TRUTH ABOUT THAT 'REBATE' IS, THAT A LOT OF IT IS SPENT HERE IN THE UK BY PRO EU GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS AND OTHER EU COMPANIES ON PROMOTING THE EU.

MOST OF THAT REBATE DOES NOT EVER FILTER BACK TO THE THE TAXPAYERS OF THIS COUNTRY WHO PAID THE FECKING MULTI BILLION POUND CONTRIBUTIONS IN THE FIRST PLACE.

AS I SAID - THE EU IS THE ULTIMATE MONEY LAUNDERING SCAM AND THE ULTIMATE EXPONENT OF THE 'SHERIFF OF NOTTINGHAM TAX - ROBBING THE POOR TO PAY THE RICH AND THE MEGA RICH CORPORATIONS.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/...23_468x240.jpg

And the cherry on the top is, we can have an annual jolly up every 23rd of June, for Independence day.

Surely that's a deal breaker?

:clap1:

[QUOTE=kirklancaster;8558574]Kirk with the greatest of respect,I could talk to you until I lost my voice for good and still would not be in any way any nearer to you agreeing with me or indeed vice versa as to you to me as to the EU.

As an IN person I have outlined my reasons and with the facts of all I know from us being an EU member, why I am 100% for in.

All I would like to hear from you and all who want out,are the guarantees that the UK would not lose out by leaving, that the UK would be the same economically successful or even better if out,than we have been while in for decades.

We are a success story of the EU, it is for you and the out camp to demonstrate clearly and with substantiation what our trading deals will be and what conditions there will be too.
How our security will be better out than in too.

Yes,I am repeating myself, and will do so until, instead of just getting EU bashing as to only negatives of the EU while ignoring any good,from the out camp who still then cannot give the assurances that are needed to be even in the slightest bit positive to think of voting out.

To you a solid'out', from me a solid 'in',I suggest since you do not like people repeating themselves, even though you are doing little else yourself with respect,that you just don't read my posts because you are never likely to be going to in any way agree with what I say on this issue.
Just as I freely admit, I am unlikely to ever agree with you on the issue either.

I will however keep repeating myself,(here I am doing it again), as to the out camp, to inform us of the guarantees they will give as to the UKs future out of the EU and its success guaranteed thereafter.
None of the out camp have done so,I doubt they will or even can,so again I repeat, that is step way too dangerous in my view for the UK to go.
Full of uncertainty and no guarantees on anything at all whatsoever.

Of course we pay more in than we get out,no one disputes that but your figures are likely incorrect as to the nett contribution since we deduct the rebate before we pay the funds and then get funds back other ways which means from the gross figure,which was quoted on the Daily Politics at one year of 19 billion, we got at least 9 billion + back as to the rebate and other EU funding to the UK.
So if you are going to put a figure up that says what we pay in, you also have to balance that with what we get back too.
Otherwise such figures become meaningless.

I have just seen that you have amended at the bottom the nett contribution,may I suggest it would be easier for those looking for such facts to see that 8.5 billion figure as the actual contribution rather then the gross figure emphasised far more strongly.

See I would say our actual contribution was 8.5 billion to the EU and not confuse things by using the gross figure as the main emphasised content.
8.5 billion is considerably less than the 13billion+ figures branded about.

Nobody disputes though,we pay in more than we get back, anything you pay into to join, you rarely get more back than you put in.

Now please us what will be the full costs added to the UK as to trade deals and tarriffs imposed if we left and had to negotiate again with the EU.
What will those costs run to,what will they be?
I expect that is another we don't know at all but expecting people to vote for it anyway stance.

The net sum is £8.5billion.

So you asked for guarantee's that we would not be losing out, there's a guarantee for you right there, we wont be losing out on £8.5 billion a year.

I have already acknowledged that actually.

Will we be saving that much, will we be saving much at all, can you now enlighten us to the fully guaranteed costs of the new trade deal we will have to negotiate with the EU,as to the costs of any tarriffs that may be put on our exports to the EU, also can you enlighten us too as to the costs of other deals negotiated independently with other Nations too.

How much of that actual 8.5 billion will we actually end up saving, I admit I haven't a clue,I haven't a clue as to if any of it would overall be saved of note.
I would love to hear someone from the out camp fully detail it all for us however, so please can and will you?

Hopefully we'll be able to clear all that up for you by June 23rd, it's only March, we don't want to peak to soon.

If we do get that information to you, do you think you can change your mind?

[Boris Johnson slammed
the Remain camp as “gloomadon poppers” for
using scare tactics to get Brits to
vote to stay in the EU.
The Mayor of London said
there is "nothing to fear but fear itself"
and attacked the In campaign for
being pessimistic about
the country’s future.
He used a speech today to
wax lyrical about the wonders
of UK trade, which he claimed
would be made better not worse
if we were to ditch Brussels
in the June 23 referendum.]

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...de-the-EU.html

Boris , You Tell The Feckers

For all those people who are undecided about their vote, you need to read this.

http://www.robert-schuman.eu/en/doc/.../qe-355-en.pdf

This paper gives the seven possible legal options after Brexit.

After a thorough read of that, both last night and this morning, I've made my decision and I will be voting to remain in.

Good try.

However come on,in truth June 23rd is not that far away and people who are undecided are asking questions now as to the guaranteed future and success if the UK left the EU.

The fact is we are getting nothing because there is nothing to get as to that if we vote to leave.
Also, I believe, no way can it be known until after we'd voted to leave as we have no idea of really what we will need to look for.
That is why right until the vote, it will be case of still paying the cheques we do now,or give the out camp books of blank cheques.

No, I won;t change my mind in any event,I would still be voting to stay in even had David Cameron not got any deal at all.
I actually never even wanted a referendum on it anyway,I believe the UKs best future is in the EU and I remain committed to that.

Which is why, while I respect those firmly for out and their passions,I am preferring to use my energy trying to persuade those undecided to think long and hard on this and hopefully support staying in too.

I can point now to the successes we have had with the EU, to the overcoming of problems when they arise with support from EU partners and also to the fact, I see success overall continuing with ongoing change being in the EU.
With us there helping bring about change and making decisions rather than even if out, having further conditions imposed on us to keep trading deals.

I can point to all that now,for any in the out camp, to admit they don't know what we could achieve with guarantees,or even to say, they will not tell the undecided until nearer June 23rd, is unbelievable.
They can't and won't say with guarantees if we come out what is likely to happen because like those who want to stay in, and the undecided too,the out camp simply do not know themselves, so then cannot give any assurances.

Without such assurances,for me their message is flawed and not to be followed.
The in camp don't really need to say anything at all, just point out that for the decades we have been in the EU as full members we are still going pretty strong, we are successful, we get through difficulties when they arise, sometimes on our own, at times with the support of our EU partners.

Again I repeat myself,(I will many times before June 23rd), to risk that status and success for a list of 'possibles', 'don't know yets','ifs' and 'maybes',in my opinion would be a massive error to make for the UKs and the children of the UK's future too.

Which is why my mind cannot be changed just as likely yours and others firmly in the out camp cannot be too.
That is to be respected.

With the choice of going on a journey to find success with someone I knew but disagreed with a fair bit but who at least could point to past and current success,or going on a journey with someone I don't know who had no real firm guarantee of where they were even taking me or even if success would be found at the end, then I will take the first journey everytime.
Even more especially if I needed to find or hold success for my Country and the future generation/s of that Country too.

Boris has been very unimpressive in his arguments so far, his case seems to totally rely on dismissing the Remain points as 'Project Fear' and of assuring people that 'we would be fine because we're Britain and we're great' blah blah blah

[‘I don’t think the governor or the
former governor of the Bank of England
should help advise people on how
they should vote in the referendum,’ says King.
He can’t, however, hide his contempt
for the eurozone and the misery
it has brought the countries
of Southern Europe.
Like his predecessor, the late
Eddie George (who criticised the idea of
a ‘one-size-fits-all’ currency at the
time of the euro’s launch in 1999),
he views the effect of the
single currency as calamitous.]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/...7743491098.jpg

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz42gtjRU74


King Perfect for a 2 hour live panel on the EU
for Ch4HD , SkyNewsHD or BBC2HD

'Lord King, who steered the Bank through the 2008 financial crisis.'

Who what?!

:joker:

Yes he has learnt
his errors.
And has not yet picked a view.

So ideal on a TV Debate

What those campaigning for out have failed to explain is what out actually means. The problem is that you can't have your cake and eat it. If the UK wants to continue doing business with the EU after exiting the EU, then it will need to comply with the EU's terms of doing such business, and guess what, it involves complying with same terms that we do now. The major difference is that as we would no longer be a part of the EU, we would have zero influence in shaping those terms.

Whether we are in or out of Europe, our frameworks have been aligned for the last 40 years, and simply saying we are not a part of it anymore while a great sound bite, isn't even close to the real reality.

You can't take control of your own destiny when you rely on others for mutual trade. The two are by definition, mutually exclusive