yup, very good point

Fair enough kirk. I think this is just obviously something where we both feel passionately enough about our different views to ever accept the others conclusions

Why is it black and white though? Because somebody happens to be a human? To some people it is grey and they have just as much right to see it like that. It's the decisions in life you choose to make, the actions you commit, that define the rights you are entitled to. There should be no reasoning, no negotiating and no mercy for terrorists. They deserve only death and suffering, which they themselves take great pleasure in inflicting on other people.

It wasn't a need for anything, it wasn't retaliation, it wasn't religion, it isn't brainwashing. IS and other fundamentalists are broken, worthless sacks of flesh that crave to hurt and maim other living creatures, they are psychopathic monsters and their religion is an excuse, it is their enabler. Give them any other guise to do what they do under, and they would of taken it.

Some people have that monster inside of them, some of them go through their lives never realising it, the rest, well... History speaks for itself.

Say what you will but it doesn't change the fact that it's a black and white issue. You either believe that everyone deserves Human Rights or you don't believe in Human Rights at all because picking and choosing who you think should have rights definitely falls under the latter.

The rest is just rationalising that I have no interest in, rationalising the need for a needless war is what gave rise to IS in the first place. The wars in the middle east have left everyone in a worse state than before. Rationalising bloodlust and hysteria have never led to anything good.

John Stewart, a tv comedian


George Bush, a president of the USA

:facepalm:

Says who?

:worship: Wow Creggle - you can be my mate. That's so brilliantly put.

This article :flutter:

i mean you could say about jail

Its disgusting, locking people,up for 23 hours a day, in a tiny cell, terrible food, no contact with the outside world

are we as bad as the crims?

In the US they kill crims remember. kill them stone dead.

Common sense? Logic? Take your pick.

It's hypocritical to believe otherwise. You can't pick and choose who gets their basic human rights and then say that you believe in Human Rights. It's all or nothing and that's all there is to it.

Because we are , we are , we are the west oi! oi! oi!

I think the key to this issue is in the descriptor - 'Human'.

By all accepted definitions of what makes us human - Intellect, Emotion, Spirituality, Morality, Compassion , Sociality - there is a definitive point at which a sentient being cannot be classified as 'Human' no matter how much that being anatomically or physiologically resembles a human.

As Creggle said earlier, the potential for what we regard as 'Evil' co-exists with the potential for 'Good' within all of us, but genuinely 'pure' Evil is a totally different entity which does not reside in the normal human, but is nonetheless something which has a very real existence.

Prisons all over the world confine monsters who by the very nature of their purely evil crimes cannot be classified as 'human'. Some of these include child killers who carried out the most inexplicable atrocities on their little victims prior to killing them. Yet, to compound their evil, these monsters smirk into the faces of the distraught parents of the victims and refuse, when begged by them, to reveal the whereabouts of their children's bodies so that they can be 'retrieved' and given a proper burial.

Are these purely evil bastards 'Human'?

On a grander scale, World history is littered with examples of genuinely pure Evil - from the Nazis to Pol Pot.

There can be no doubt that Hitler was a purely evil demon. But what of those who served him?

In one 'Death Factory' a young Jewish mother - guessing her imminent fate - desperately attempted to hide her baby beneath a pile of clothing. A young Nazi guard spotted her attempt and bayoneted the baby countless times - in front of the distraught mother - through the discarded clothing.

Was this purely evil bastard 'Human'?

Despite the fact that there are certain apologists who would answer: "Yes" to my questions, the answer is an irrefutable 'NO'.

An Islamic Fundamentalist plot to conquer the world by force is evil. The atrocities carried out by those Islamic Fundamentalists whose 'raison d'etre' is to realise the success of that plot, is pure evil and they, therefore, cannot ever be classified as 'Human' by any sane, rational person.

There is no word other than 'evil' to describe the cold blooded, calculated beheading of terrified innocent human beings. But - as in the aforementioned case of the serial killers who delight in refusing to reveal to the grief-stricken, pleading families of their little victims the whereabouts of their children's remains - it is the complete and utter pleasure which these bastards derive from such evil acts which compounds that evil and defines these 'Jihadist' monsters as purely evil 'non-humans'.

There can be no doubts. Pure evil exists. It exists in sentient beings who - whilst resembling humans - are irrefutably inhuman, not human, alien.

They do not qualify to be classified as 'Human' nor to be afforded the same considerations as 'Humans' - they are inhuman, sub-human, not human.

I contend, therefore that we recognise this distinction, accept it, and stop all thoughts or propositions that we treat these non human demons as human, and stop affording to them the same ‘Human Rights’ afforded to genuine humans.

They are not Human they are inhuman demons.

The 'West' is far from some utopia, but I just wish that those who constantly decry it and deplore it - including certain immigrants - would just feck off and live in one of the freer, more civilised, more enlightened, more liberal countries in the East - Oh wait a moment - that's where most of the poor oppressed mites fled here from.

Oh well.

Well, John Locke (the philosopher, rather than the "Lost" character named after him...) would disagree with you there. The basics being that one's human rights are protected by "social contract" and that if that one happens to break their end of the contract (by, say, being a serial killer, active sociopath, or indeed a terrorist) then they make the choice to tear up that contract and are therefore no longer protected by its terms (in other words, they are "fair game" for more or less anything.)

Of course;

- half of these people were only suspects and their arrests dubious so that shouldn't apply

- Most Western governments and their agents could be considered guilty of breaking the contract many times over (and therefore, theoretically, be fair game for attack without breaking the attackers contract...)

- or, you might just believe that we have or should have moved on from centuries-old social philosophy.

Of course this is a massive simplification, there are whole books, and books about books, on this... HOWEVER, worth noting, is that the US declaration of independence and large parts of the written constitution are based on Lockian philosophy, which might explain their often heavy hand. Also their obsession with "property", though that's another matter. Sort of.

Well done the Lame Duck President
he says after the worse ever Terrorist attack
we did not know what was next
so we had to use methods,
some were wrong.




But at least he accepts it

You are correct in your sentiments LT but - and I'm going slightly off topic - are you familiar with the British Penal System as it is now since partial privatisation?

The 'Centre Right' 'Think Tank' 'Reform' will tell you different from what I am going to tell you here, but they have their own capitalist-driven covert agenda, and are speaking pure bollocks.

Prisons now are glorified holiday camps. All thoughts of 'Rehabilitation' have long since been abandoned, but so too now have all pretense of 'Punishment'.

Among other 'official' perks, 'Prisoners' are allowed to wear their own clothing, have Sky Satellite TV, Lap tops and internet access, as well as access to luxuriously equipped gym facilities. But it is the 'unofficial' perks which 'prisoners' freely enjoy,at certain privately run prisons which are incredible and mind-blowing, and more so because although known about by the prison authorities, these 'perks' are ignored in order 'to prevent trouble erupting'.

Tennis balls which have been cut in half, stuffed with heroin and crack cocaine then glued back together have been regularly thrown over the walls at certain prisons, to be later collected by inmates and the contents sold for massive profits by drug dealing convicts within the prison. Drug taking at these prisons is a massive problem.

Prison staff have been aware of this practice, but as said, turn a blind eye for the reasons stated.

Cunning prisoners at these and other privately run prisons also ensure their drug supply from the outside by using the fact that the UK Courts System is also such a huge joke now.

Convicted shoplifters are guaranteed a jail sentence in the Magistrates Court by repeatedly continuing to shoplift - albeit these sentences leniently range from a few days to a few weeks - no matter how many times the offender continues to offend or how many previous convictions for shoplifting the offender has. It's all a laughable game at the tax-payers expense.

Certain shoplifters - ideally those with no drug convictions - are recruited by certain convicted prisoners and the shoplifter -- some only just freshly released from prison for shoplifting - are supplied by third parties with suitably packaged heroin or crack cocaine 'sausages' which he then pushes well up inside his rectum or ---'plugs'. He then goes straight out and shoplifts whilst ensuring that he gets caught in the act. The inevitable happens and he is sentenced to a very short jail term by the local magistrate, and once inside, he pulls out the 'plug' hands it over to his 'employer' and once released is paid by third parties on the outside. The con now has another supply of highly prized drugs which the sale of to other prisoners will net him thousands of pounds.

The freed shoplifter repeats the process.

Another illegal perk ignored by prison authorities are smuggled mobile phones. The majority of 'power prisoners' now have their own mobiles which they use to direct their criminal empires from within prison.

To this Government's credit, they are aware of these matters and others - though they might not detail as much - and they have reversed an earlier pledge to fully privatise prisons and have begun a process of removing contracts from certain private companies for the running of certain prisons and are returning them to state control.

They are being heavily criticized for this decision by the Howard League For Penal Reform and - as stated earlier - 'Reform' -- both of which have their own agenda for doing so.

Incidentally, my knowledge on this - as with my knowledge on Islamic 'Fifth Columnists' hails from the 'horse's mouths' - in this case, two prison officer friends themselves who work at two different, privately run prisons.

It's a nice old world 'innit'? :hehe:

Yeah, back in the old days when prisons were horrific places, there was far less crime. ...

I feel the need to explicitly point out, if this is not already clear, that the above is sarcasm and that in the past, let's say Victorian times when prison conditions were fairly awful, crime was still rife. As it is in countries where the prison systems are highly unpleasant e.g. many South American countries, like Brazil, which has problems with crime (both petty and organised) that makes crime in the UK seem paltry.

Not saying our prison systems are ideal BUT punitive imprisonment simply does not deter crime. It breaks people and all but ensures that non-violent petty criminals, when they are released, will have a tendency towards violence. It's a mistake. But a mistake that many people want to see, because people by their very nature are vengeful creatures, rather than problem solvers.

Never mind human rights.Western countrys need to defend themselves against these feckers blowing us up.If that means torture then torture away.If it means shooting,Blowing up or imprisoning whatever stops these worms killing us is good for me.

Except we tried that before and it ended up with IS taking power. If we use the same tactics against IS, then we'll just have a more extreme group rise from it's ashes. Brutality is not the answer since extremists will just use every drone strike and operation as recruitment material and stories like this will only make things worse.

Ideologies matter, if we're gonna advocate human rights and freedom then we must practice those ideals because the only way to keep these extremist groups down is to show the people of the middle east we aren't the monsters we're made out to be but that's hard to do when we're torturing people freely and using Drone strikes to kill groups of innocent people in the hopes of getting at a few terrorists. Our actions have led us to the IS crisis and history will only repeat itself if we are brutal in our approach to dealing with them.

So well put........Creggle, I think you caught the real essence of the debate in your post (above). These worthless sacks of flesh as you put it exist now only to inflict death and torture on innocent people and as such they forfeit all claims to "human" rights.

I think however we should uphold their "subhuman" rights and give these death worshipping savages the long slow painful lingering death they so clearly crave, and let them go into martydom screaming in righteous agony.




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Couldnt agree more Kirk, an important distinction you make. We must remove all human thoughts which in the main are front loaded to emotions of love,peace,sympathy,empathy, reconciliation, understanding and forgiveness.

These inhuman creatures need to be despatched from this existance ASAP as they represent only pain, torture, suffering and Death

I think we should dispense with the occasional killing of these creatures, rather undertake mass killings on an almost industrial scale using ALL weapons available, a bit like how you would exterminate a large colony of vermin.

Same difference.





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So,If a terror suspect who has key information has been caught and is prepared to die before he gives any information about an attack or future attacks,Then what do you do?Just let him off?Or do you extract any information possible in order to save your citizens lives.
How could any leader just sit back and let terrorists kill hundreds or thousands of their people with no response?They would lose the confidence of the people very fast.
The first job of a president/prime minister should be the protection of its own people.
Letting them get away with murder will only encourage them to attack us more.
Leaders need to prevent attacks any way they can.These people will attack us wether we fight back or roll over and take it.I'd take fighting back any day.

Wow!, A government spying agency lied. ****ing hell. SPIES LIE, OMFG. thank gawd we all know the truth now. or do we? :shrug: :hehe:

:flowers::kiss: I love you. We are soooo right about these demons.