Originally Posted by Jimrod (Post 9781618)

This modern use of "phobia" is a bollocks term, is there any indication that Andrew has an irrational fear or aversion to India because she's trans? No.

If Andrew sees India as a man, as you say he does, then tough - just because someone wants to identify as they please it doesn't mean they can force others to think how they want them to as well. India grew as a man, she's a man who's had surgery and feels that that she's a woman inside, that's all.

India's "phobia" of drag queens is far worse than any other in the house because it's a lie, it's jealousy that someone's stealing her thunder, taking her preachy self-righteous limelight. She's a crap example of a human being and will do trans people no favours with her behaviour.

Originally Posted by Jimrod (Post 9781618)

This modern use of "phobia" is a bollocks term, is there any indication that Andrew has an irrational fear or aversion to India because she's trans? No.

If Andrew sees India as a man, as you say he does, then tough - just because someone wants to identify as they please it doesn't mean they can force others to think how they want them to as well. India grew as a man, she's a man who's had surgery and feels that that she's a woman inside, that's all.

India's "phobia" of drag queens is far worse than any other in the house because it's a lie, it's jealousy that someone's stealing her thunder, taking her preachy self-righteous limelight. She's a crap example of a human being and will do trans people no favours with her behaviour.

Originally Posted by Jimrod (Post 9781618)

This modern use of "phobia" is a bollocks term, is there any indication that Andrew has an irrational fear or aversion to India because she's trans? No.

If Andrew sees India as a man, as you say he does, then tough - just because someone wants to identify as they please it doesn't mean they can force others to think how they want them to as well. India grew as a man, she's a man who's had surgery and feels that that she's a woman inside, that's all.

India's "phobia" of drag queens is far worse than any other in the house because it's a lie, it's jealousy that someone's stealing her thunder, taking her preachy self-righteous limelight. She's a crap example of a human being and will do trans people no favours with her behaviour.

Originally Posted by Jimrod (Post 9781618)

This modern use of "phobia" is a bollocks term, is there any indication that Andrew has an irrational fear or aversion to India because she's trans? No.

If Andrew sees India as a man, as you say he does, then tough - just because someone wants to identify as they please it doesn't mean they can force others to think how they want them to as well. India grew as a man, she's a man who's had surgery and feels that that she's a woman inside, that's all.

India's "phobia" of drag queens is far worse than any other in the house because it's a lie, it's jealousy that someone's stealing her thunder, taking her preachy self-righteous limelight. She's a crap example of a human being and will do trans people no favours with her behaviour.

Originally Posted by Ashley. (Post 9781598)

Gender-specific swear words? Now I've heard everything.

I can think of numerous women who I'd classify as a prick. India's one of them.

Originally Posted by Vicky. (Post 9781729)

Is it really transphobic to see a transwoman as a male person though? Especially a transwoman who goes on constantly about 'when I was a man' and such? I really don't think it is.

But I agree, the prick and dickhead were likely as he does see India as a male person. But India IS a male person. And reminds everyone of this on a regular basis.

Personally I would say transphobic would be saying (for example) 'disgusting ******' or something about how India is trans and you disagree with India being trans. Not that India is a male person.

Originally Posted by Vicky. (Post 9781729)

Is it really transphobic to see a transwoman as a male person though? Especially a transwoman who goes on constantly about 'when I was a man' and such? I really don't think it is.

But I agree, the prick and dickhead were likely as he does see India as a male person. But India IS a male person. And reminds everyone of this on a regular basis.

Personally I would say transphobic would be saying (for example) 'disgusting ******' or something about how India is trans and you disagree with India being trans. Not that India is a male person.

Originally Posted by Shaun (Post 9781750)

If you'd said India WAS a male person I'd understand but nah this is just pretty ignorant and not really helping, tbh. I get the trans women =/= cis women argument but calling her a male person now just doesn't make sense to me.

Her talking about her past is understandable in explaining the context of what motivated her to transition, but shouldn't give green light to a group of people just calling her a man because they don't like her and she's an annoying housemate. If someone were to get a gastric band and then talk about why they didn't enjoy being fat, and how different they feel now, people wouldn't really still call them fat if they were now of an average shape :laugh:

I think this series is just giving ignorant people justification to get away with all sorts of insults about transgender people.

Originally Posted by Shaun (Post 9781750)

If you'd said India WAS a male person I'd understand but nah this is just pretty ignorant and not really helping, tbh. I get the trans women =/= cis women argument but calling her a male person now just doesn't make sense to me.

Her talking about her past is understandable in explaining the context of what motivated her to transition, but shouldn't give green light to a group of people just calling her a man because they don't like her and she's an annoying housemate. If someone were to get a gastric band and then talk about why they didn't enjoy being fat, and how different they feel now, people wouldn't really still call them fat if they were now of an average shape :laugh:

I think this series is just giving ignorant people justification to get away with all sorts of insults about transgender people.

Originally Posted by Vicky. (Post 9781760)

Why? She IS a male person. Yes she has had surgeries and such to resemble a woman but she is still male. And you cannot undo 50 years of male social conditioning.

I reckon if she just st fu for a bit about her transition and being male, people would actually maybe see her as a woman. But whilst shes constantly going on about it and...dare I say acting like a male person...a lot of people will see her as a male person. Compared to the likes of Nadia and Luke A...who barely spoke about it and for them it seemed being trans was a small part of who they are, whilst being trans seems to be ALL India is.

Originally Posted by Vicky. (Post 9781760)

Why? She IS a male person. Yes she has had surgeries and such to resemble a woman but she is still male. And you cannot undo 50 years of male social conditioning.

I reckon if she just st fu for a bit about her transition and being male, people would actually maybe see her as a woman. But whilst shes constantly going on about it and...dare I say acting like a male person...a lot of people will see her as a male person. Compared to the likes of Nadia and Luke A...who barely spoke about it and for them it seemed being trans was a small part of who they are, whilst being trans seems to be ALL India is.

Originally Posted by Livia (Post 9781762)

India keeps talking about when she was a man and (and I say this with no insult intended) she looks like a man and dresses like a teenage girl.

I think that by putting India in the house they've set back the Trans community a couple of years. I've seen trans women on TV before, and I've met a few in real life, worked with one even, and I have never in my life seen someone so self-centred and ready to be a victim as India. Shame... it might have been a good experience, like it was when Luke A won. He was a good ambassador the the trans community, I think.

Originally Posted by Shaun (Post 9781793)

Oh definitely, she's deeply insecure and taking offense to everything, but I don't see why that still makes her male. The social conditioning is a good point, and an example of why she'd never be able to relate to women fully, but at the same time you could argue that gay people, in the closet for however many number of years, are/were subject to a lifetime of heterosexual conditioning by family members, the media, friends etc. and yet are still gay.

Male social conditioning could mean many things really and as Andrew pointed out in his argument with India, he wouldn't be comfortable with how he dresses/speaks in, say, a more macho environment. Yet he's still benefited from this male conditioning, whereas she's presumably been suppressed by it (I say 'presumably' because I don't know how long ago it was that she transitioned / even wanted to transition).

Originally Posted by Shaun (Post 9781793)

Oh definitely, she's deeply insecure and taking offense to everything, but I don't see why that still makes her male. The social conditioning is a good point, and an example of why she'd never be able to relate to women fully, but at the same time you could argue that gay people, in the closet for however many number of years, are/were subject to a lifetime of heterosexual conditioning by family members, the media, friends etc. and yet are still gay.

Male social conditioning could mean many things really and as Andrew pointed out in his argument with India, he wouldn't be comfortable with how he dresses/speaks in, say, a more macho environment. Yet he's still benefited from this male conditioning, whereas she's presumably been suppressed by it (I say 'presumably' because I don't know how long ago it was that she transitioned / even wanted to transition).



I don't really buy the "ambassador for the _____ community" stuff, really, and not sure why she should be an example of how to treat and view everyone else inside it. If it's set them back then that's because people are viewing them all as the same :shrug: The only community she's really set back imo is the "narcissistic crybaby" community, and thankfully that's just This Morning guests.

Originally Posted by Niamh. (Post 9781809)

That's different though, being gay is just who you are sexually attracted to. Where as part of being a woman involves how you are treated all through your life as a woman, as a girl, as a teenager. Whilst India may have felt like she was a woman for those 50 years when she was living as a man, she was still being treated like a boy, a teenage boy and a man

Originally Posted by GoldHeart (Post 9781369)

FFS give me a break!!!! :notimpressed:. Women get called male insults all the time and this isn't the first time in BB history .

You're basically clutching at straws and you're falling for India's victim card :bored:.

Originally Posted by Niamh. (Post 9781809)

Whilst India may have felt like she was a woman for those 50 years when she was living as a man, she was still being treated like a boy, a teenage boy and a man

Originally Posted by GreenIce (Post 9781820)

And married a woman and fathered a son. So was India a lesbian woman trapped in a man's body back then and now she's a straight woman? :puzzled:

Originally Posted by Vicky. (Post 9781806)

Well being insecure is not what makes India male. Biology is what makes India male. And India constantly going on about being male (and acting male) is why others are seeing India as male rather than as a woman.

I just said in admin actually that its quite unnerving for me this year as with Luke and Nadia I did see them as the sex they wanted to be...but with India I just do not at all. Not sure if its because India passes so badly, or Indias attitude/behaviour (like a typical male..sorry but no woman would be creaming her breasts infront of others and stating that breasts are just like an arm) or what but generally I do see fully transitioned transsexuals as the sex they wish they were. Or if its because my eyes have been opened to the behavior of extreme transactivists fairly recently which has changed my opinion on the whole topic almost completely. Whatever it is, I don't like it at all :S

I don't think gay people are a relevant comparison here. Do people treat gay people differently on whether they are out or not? In the same extreme way that women and men are treat differently from birth?

Originally Posted by Niamh. (Post 9781809)

That's different though, being gay is just who you are sexually attracted to. Where as part of being a woman involves how you are treated all through your life as a woman, as a girl, as a teenager. Whilst India may have felt like she was a woman for those 50 years when she was living as a man, she was still being treated like a boy, a teenage boy and a man

Originally Posted by GreenIce (Post 9781820)

And married a woman and fathered a son. So was India a lesbian woman trapped in a man's body back then and now she's a straight woman? :puzzled:

Originally Posted by Shaun (Post 9781831)

I guess a better example for India would be - did you watch the series with Kellie Maloney? She was also deeply insecure and largely unpopular on here (perhaps not to the overbearing extent that India is now - because she had James Jordan, Frenchy and White Dee to contest with :laugh:) and because of the very recent nature of her transition at that time, she, obviously, still looked very 'male' and as such I think was treated more as a joke than as a fully fledged transition that was now happy and who they wanted to be.

Botched surgery is definitely a factor and I think that's unfortunate (also perhaps age: if someone transitions when younger, as indeed Luke and Nadia did, the effect is probably more 'convincing' because of, idk, young skin being more malleable and forgiving :p)

India is a unique (to Big Brother anyway) case though in that she keeps distancing herself from the more feminine housemates. Even wanting the males to enter the house because she thought the women were too bitchy (how progressive :rolleyes:) so I definitely think there's some internalised misogyny on her part.



It does have a large influence over who you socialise with and feel comfortable with, though, which is why I suggested it - the enforcement of heterosexuality as the norm does also have a demoralising effect. Without even taking into consideration the legality aspect (it would've been decriminalised the year she was born so not TOO important I guess lol, but still recent history), it's an example of how the idea of masculinity and male privilege isn't as all-encompassing as it may be seen as, if it's not including queer/trans people.

I'll concede though that I know nothing of the female struggle so I'm trying my best not to mansplain :laugh: my point is just that there are times when "male privilege" doesn't feel that powerful (and I admit, there are many times when it's taken for granted and not noticed)

Originally Posted by Shaun (Post 9781831)

I guess a better example for India would be - did you watch the series with Kellie Maloney? She was also deeply insecure and largely unpopular on here (perhaps not to the overbearing extent that India is now - because she had James Jordan, Frenchy and White Dee to contest with :laugh:) and because of the very recent nature of her transition at that time, she, obviously, still looked very 'male' and as such I think was treated more as a joke than as a fully fledged transition that was now happy and who they wanted to be.

Botched surgery is definitely a factor and I think that's unfortunate (also perhaps age: if someone transitions when younger, as indeed Luke and Nadia did, the effect is probably more 'convincing' because of, idk, young skin being more malleable and forgiving :p)

India is a unique (to Big Brother anyway) case though in that she keeps distancing herself from the more feminine housemates. Even wanting the males to enter the house because she thought the women were too bitchy (how progressive :rolleyes:) so I definitely think there's some internalised misogyny on her part.