Just simple, worship 1 god and do not associate partners or physical body as God, Islam stands for pure monethism.:thumbs:

[quote]Originally posted by Tom

Albert Einsteins quote: Quran is not a book of algebra or geometry but is a collection of rules which guides human beings to the right way, the way which the greatest philosophers are unable to decline it. Try looking up where the thory of relativity actually came from. http://groups.msn.com/14masumeen/qur...mscholars.msnw




What did I do that is forbidden?

To me that doesn't mean anything. The roots of the theory could have influenced him. But if by your logic if something big comes about from a big public figure then that could be easily turned around onto another religion. Take the 10 commandments for example. Now adapt them into every day British law, and adapt them into our moral laws too. Just because something comes about from a religious scripture it does not mean the scripture is true.

• Forced conversation is forbidden. Although it states physical conversation, in some way this could be interpreted as physical conversation because obviously the Qur'an was written before the invention of the internet.
• You say that the Qur'an says that you should respect the beliefs and religion of others. Throughout your many threads on this topic you clearly have no respect for the religion of others and you believe that you are right all of the time which leads on to my next point.
• The way in which you present your opinions is stupid. You present them as 'facts'. There is no consolidated proof that what you are saying is 'fact' and its all open to interpretation. My point is that you say the Qur'an says you must be peaceful in your teachings. However the way in which you display your opinion is very aggressive and forceful. Its almost as though you won't take suggestions from others, you won't try to explain things and you think you are correct despite criticisms that other people offer. You simply state something and back it up with a quote. There is no proof that these quotes are no more valid than quotes from other religious scriptures, but you continue to put them across as facts.

Another point that also shows you contradicting yourself is about translations. You keep reiterating a point that it has remained in its original form. What proof do you have for this? Also, you said this

That part of the post in itself is contradictory. I haven't taken it out of context but there you are clearly saying that there have been mis translations when in the exact same post, and in many others, you have said it remains in its original form.

And also, just a very very small grammatical point which makes my opinion of you as someone who follows Islam go even lower, you would know that 'Quran' is grammatically incorrect and as a good follower you would know it is 'Qu'ran'.

http://www.muslimheritage.com/topics...&ArticleID=383

If you try looking at the link, the man who came with the theory first was Al-kindi in the 9ths century, he got the idea from the quran and he used that theory to prove the existence of God much like Einstein did at the end of his career.:thumbs:

I didn't criticise anyone or any religion.

Gods word were revealed in arabic, in the sense my point was none of the arabic text have been changed, but the only slight problem is the some of translational errors by scholars in english as Arabic like any other language have words with many meanings.

Quran grammitically inncorrect, are you sure you read the quran in arabic?

That still doesn't prove that the Qur'an is correct, it just shows it is influential which I am not disputing, but it is influential in the way that all religious texts are influential. And if you're going to base some of your 'facts' with backups from science, there is plenty of evidence suggesting [a] God does not exist.

Not directly you might not have, but you appear to not be able to acknowledge/accept that other religions also have answers and responses that are deemed adequate. You are not open to suggestions at all.

You're still contradicting yourself. Make your mind up whether you think it is still in its original form. If you think there have been slight translational errors because words have many meanings in Arabic, then it is not in its original form. Why can't you grasp that concept?

Well obviously not because I can't read Arabic but I'm sure grammatical rules in Arabic are different to those in English, and we are having this discussion in English. Any good follower of any religion knows that one of the main rules when discussing religion is to write the relevant religious texts in the correct grammatical way for example 'the Bible' (hence the capital).

[quote]Originally posted by Tom

Yes in Islam there is no compulsion in religion (Chapter 2 verse 256) Mahatma Gandhi said by learning Quran, every body will achieve revelation secrets and religion knowledge. In Quran we don’t see anything which allows using obligation to change others religion. This sacred book says in the simplest way: “there is no obligation in religion.”

Basically Ghandi's manners, mercifulness, prosperity was highly inspired by the Quran, which in India they seem to hide.

[quote]Originally posted by Tom
[quote]
That still doesn't prove that the Qur'an is correct, it just shows it is influential which I am not disputing, but it is influential in the way that all religious texts are influential. And if you're going to base some of your 'facts' with backups from science, there is plenty of evidence suggesting [a] God does not exist.

Theory of relativity is a vital tool that revolutionised the mathamatics and Physics, thats down to the holy Quran for giving this idea which helped Einstein and Al-Kindi to develop it.


Furthermore what those most famous respected non-muslims have said, this includes Einstein, Ghandi.:bigsmile:

See farhad, this is why I say you have no respect for people having other faiths/no faith.

You argue your point well, but ultimately when someone chooses to reject it you almost say they've made the wrong decision completely.

As of yet, I've witnessed no "miracles".

I accept that you have a different faith to me completely, and I do not try and convert you otherwise.

I just wish that you'd stick to teaching rather than attempting to convert people.

Thats completely irrelevant and you are straying well away from the point. The point is if the Qu'ran [in other words] states that you should respect the faith of others, you clearly aren't doing that because you are forcing your opinions onto us as though you are right. You are trying to convert us all to Islam forcefully by putting your points across and not expanding very well (IMO). When someone refutes your claims you make no attempt to argue against it but just stick another quote in and a brief explanation. You are basically telling them they are wrong, and you are right. One of the main rules of debate is put your opinions and 'evidence' across in a way which will persuade people to switch sides and have the same trail of thought. If all else fails then at least you have attempted. IMO you have lost all credibility because of the way you argue. You do not acknowledge those of a different faith who put points across and you just do the same point but from an Islam point of view. You don't attempt to argue against, you think your 'proof' (which isn't even conclusive) is enough to do that and it isn't. The bottom line is that when discussing religion, nobody is correct. Sorry about my rant but back to the point, you are straying away from the point to bring yet another quote from the Qu'ran and you are making no attempt whatsoever to persuade me you are right. You are just stating it as fact and expecting me to believe it, and trying to deflect your initial contradiction onto something else.

As for the quotes from big figures in history, to me they do not mean anything. They are merely opinions that are just as valid as your opinion, and in turn they are just as valid as my opinion. Just because they are known for being clever it doesn't mean their opinion is automatically more valid than anyone elses.

Oh and finally, you need to learn how to quote properly.

So you dont believe in God, you think the world was created out of nothing?

The big bang theory? You're normally one to jump on the scientific theories bandwagon. If God created the world where did he come from in the first place? There has to be a start to everything, he can't have always just been there. Then before the world was created there is nothing around except him. God is omnipotent which means he can do anything and create something out of nothing. However, if God can do anything, can be make a stone thats too heavy for him to lift?

God is uncreated, and regarding Big bang muslims believed in it since Quran was revealed.

Could you just explain to me the creation theory in the Qu'ran because I'm not familiar with it. Its just out of curiosity, if its the big bang then where does God fit in?

I have to get of to work so I dont have time to provide everything myslef, these might help, a scholar of Islam, Bible and various other religion a doctor he is quite well known.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6xtmz21jYs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-hO1...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFVDT...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Pmxx...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KD-O...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUZlb...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAV15...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oe7Dg...eature=related

The mystery of iron where it came from in Quran as well as the hidden message on the verse number and chapter the iron was mentioned is astonishing. For example chapter 57 of Quran is titled "The Iron", it is scientifically discovered that the iron came down to form the earth's core, Quran total chapter is 114, and chapter 57 is the middle chapter of Quran (114). The Iron has 26 atoms, in Arabic Iron is translated in "Haddid", in Arabic each letter has a numerical value, if you add up the value of each letter of that word, it equals to 26. Furthermore Quran says Iron came from outerspace by a great force physically.
http://www.55a.net/firas/english/?id=179&page=show_det

Iron is ONE atom with 26 protons, hence it's atomic number of 26

See here

Please get something right :bored:

Thats what I meant that it is 26 protons, and the word used in arabic for iron is Haddid, the numerical value for the word is 26, have you ever done Arabic numeral, and the chapter number of iron appears in Chapter 57, right in the middle as Quran consist of 114 chap. This chapter was place in the middle to describe the the hidden miracle, meaning the core.

What relevance the atomic number of iron and the numerical value for 26 (which is purely coincidence, all languages name things after other things like that, its nothing to do with Islam) have to do with proving where the centre of the Earth is? You're veering right off the argument and clutching at straws to show us you are right.

I can't be bothered watching the creation thing either, I just wanted a brief explanation not a few clips.

Ok, Science says Earth was born out of fire and initial stage of universe was in a gasous state (Quran describes it as cloud of smoke or the Vapour) and dust then water was formed and living things originated or made from water. Quran explains all of these elements, it describes the Big Bang, the gas and the expanding Universe.

Then Allah turned to the Universe when it was smoke (Gasous state), and said unto it and unto the earth: Come both of you, willingly or loth. They said: We come, obedient.
(Quran, 41:11)


Arabic word Sama has three meanings which is heaven, Universe and Sky (space). Because the earth and the heavens above (the sun, the moon, stars, planets, galaxies, etc.) have been formed from this same ‘smoke,’ we conclude that the earth and the heavens were one connected entity. Then out of this homogeneous ‘smoke,’ they formed and separated from each other. God has said in the Quran:

Big Bang
"Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens (heavens here refers to the sun, the moon, stars, planets, galaxies, etc.)) and the earth were of one piece, then We seperated them, and we made every living thing of water? Will they not then"believe?(21:30)

The verse says earth and all the other plannets and space which refers to heaven were of 1 mass and then was seperated which is known the Big Bang.

When the quran says "do not those who disbelieve see", this doesn't mean that humans were present to see this happen, this talks to the scientist who will later on discover this fact which already is stated in Quran.

Expanding universe

We have constructed the Universe with might (means with power known as "The Dark Energy"), and verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it.... " (Surah 51:47).

Sama as it has three meanings which is Sky, universe or heaven (also means Universe), this translation refers to universe which is expanding, then again the translators are not scientist and it was a very good guess when they translated this verse expanding before the discovery of it.

The arabic word used for expanding is Vasia (توسع). If you look at any Arabic dictionary, you will see that the literal meaning of the arabic word "vasia" is "to enlarge, to widen, vastness to expand.

Today it is known there is seven astmospheric layers which was only dscovered few decades ago.

"It is He Who created everything on the earth for you and then directed His attention up to heaven and arranged it into seven regular heavens. He has knowledge of all things."
(The Qur'an, 2:29)

Heaven (Sama) here is used twice in this verse one to refer to entire universe and the other to refer to sky layers. Hope this helps.:thumbs:

This describes the atmosphereic layer.

Thanks for the description, and for the PM as well.

Very interesting theory and interpretation there. Not much more I can say really but I don't think its conclusive evidence that the Qu'ran is right ...

(I wasn't looking to pick holes in it btw or refute it, I was just genuinely interested in what the Islam version of the creation story is)

Your welcome, I think the best way to understand the Quran is by going to scholars and imam, as well as learning Arabic, arabics like english or French word can have many meanings.

What a totally contradictory documentary of the Quran on Cahnnel 4. The verses they read out mainly on women being treated inferior isn't true, I agree some contradictory passages may have been mis-trasnlated due to words with many meanings.

I actually found this interesting, although technally off topic if you want to start one about that programme. I had heard the one before about that sura that says, "If you doubt your woman, remove her to the bedchamber, admonish her and beat her soundly"

They had a woman trying to justify it by saying it was a rebellious woman who wanted to do what she wanted etc. But that still does not amealiorate the fact it was commanding a man to physically assault a woman.

Contrast that with 1 Peter 3:7


and Ephesians 5:25

The bit about female circumcision was disturbing, where that Imman was justifying it on the grounds it keeps the women pure and all of the women in England were adulterous because it had not been done, yet another islamic scholar said it was nothing to do with Islam


The bit about the programme I liked was the results of the non-islamic Quranic scholars and the study of the earliest Quran which showed that earlier translations not in the modern one, made more sense. e.g, 72 virgins become 72 grapes. It comes across as an indictment, that one of the German scholars was afraid to appear in person.

Well done Channel 4

I agree, they focussed on the bad.

But the fact that some bad exists within the Qu'ran (and it's not just how you interpret it... some of the lines in the Qu'ran cannot be interpreted in any other way) shows that it's claim to pure good is refutable?

About female circumcision - you cannot take the blame away from Islam for that. The Qu'ran has been the instigator of damning regimes (Ayatollah Khomeini, for example), just like Christianity has been the instigator to damning groups (Westboro Baptist Church, for example).

Why do people constantly tell me religion is for peace, yet I see it being used for bad?

I'm interested in both Sticks' and farhad's point on this, WITHOUT quoting religious texts, please.

(As you see, I didn't go for the sensationalist perspective of 'Religion is not peaceful because people bomb for their religion' etc - because I feel the Ayatollah's regime was much more lasting and representative of the Qu'ran interpretation).

Basically the verse that talks about beat the word has many meanings, the word could mean to go forth or leave them for a whole if they come to her senses. Basically the translation is flawed because Prophet Mohammed hasn't never beat his 11 wives, this is many of the sayings of Prophet Mohammed in authentic Hadith where he made this type of thing unlawful.


Hadith - Bukhari 8:68 (Volume 8, Book 73, Number 68), Narrated 'Abdullah bin Zam'a

The Prophet said, "How does anyone of you beat his wife as he beats the stallion camel and then he may embrace (sleep with) her?"
Narrated Mu'awiyah al-Qushayri: "I went to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) and asked him: What do you say (command) about our wives? He replied: Give them food what you have for yourself, and clothe them by which you clothe yourself, and do not beat them, and do not revile them. (Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 11, Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Number 2139)"

Hadith - Dawud, Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin
Habibah daughter of Sahl was the wife of Thabit ibn Qays Shimmas. He beat her and broke some of her part. So she came to the Prophet (Peace and Blessings of Allah be upon him- PBUH) after morning, and complained to him against her husband. The Prophet called on Thabit ibn Qays and said (to him): Take a part of her property and separate yourself from her. He asked: Is that right, Apostle of Allah? He said: Yes. He said: I have given her two gardens of mine as a dower, and they are already in her possession. The Prophet said: Take them and separate yourself from her.


Narrated Mu'awiyah ibn Haydah: "I said: Apostle of Allah, how should we approach our wives and how should we leave them? He replied: Approach your wife when or how you will, give her (your wife) food when you take food, clothe when you clothe yourself, do not revile her face, and do not beat her. (Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 11, Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Number 2138)"

Abu Huraira (Allah be pleased with him) reported Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) as saying: "He who believes in Allah and the Hereafter, if he witnesses any matter he should talk in good terms about it or keep quiet. Act kindly towards woman, for woman is created from a rib, and the most crooked part of the rib is its top. If you attempt to straighten it, you will break it, and if you leave it, its crookedness will remain there. So act kindly towards women. (Translation of Sahih Muslim, The Book of Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Book 008, Number 3468)"

Contrast that with 1 Peter 3:7


Wife needs respect no matter how they are, I agree some passages in the quran do contradict like the verse on killing was actually talking about a war battle called "Battle of Badr"where the Pagan tribes broke their peace treaty and were oppressing and killing the muslim, christians and jews in the land of Madina, I think C4 didn't do a great job on actually analysing the crontadictory passages. The verse that says do not take Jews and Chrisitians as friend should of been translated as do not take them as allies to cheat your own people or bribe, its talking about tribes not corresponding to everyone as a whole as Quran allows u marry and befriend people of the book.

and Ephesians 5:25

I agree:thumbs:

Basically this practise in that country was already practised before Islam came to existance.


I did agree with some of that but not all of their translation.