Oh, that's totally different. If anything like that were to happen to any of my beautiful cousins I'd drop the $£"!, no question, and then role around in my own faeces so I can claim temporary insanity.

True and I agree with that and think that longer sentences need to be utilised more but I can't condone captial punishment or vigilantism. It does nothing for the victims and cheapens us all.

Setanta, if you regularly roll around in your own faeces, you can't use that defense though. ;)

Nah, only for special occasions that I hope I never have to go through. But yeah, have to have your defense all sorted out before you do him in.

So hands being chopped off doesn't come under torture in your books?

I dont think it is necessarily true that sex offenders are "incurable", there are ways of rehabilitating them so that they dont reoffend.

100% agree. That's the point I made before about where we draw the line..

Who decides it's okay to kick the sh!t out of one guy because he robbed an old lady, but not okay to do it to another because he robbed RS McColl?

That's a lame example, but laws are there for a reason. They're supposed to protect us, and create a society we can all live in safely. Unfortunately, the laws in this country seem to protect the criminals more than they protect the victims. That's the reason decent people turn to crime to 'get even'.

I don't see this changing though. It's gotten worse over the years, and we're now known for our 'soft touch' legal system.

That's all very swish and dandy, but I highly doubt that the walls of your pregnant womb were imbued with an elixir of knowledge. I hate this assumption that all teenagers and childless parties in this argument cannot understand the severity of the crime committed here, because they haven't fulfilled a universally available biological process.

It's interesting what lily and setanta said - if this were their children they would want to rip them apart. And that's understandable - there is no underestimating the personal hatred and anger they, or you, or I, would go through in that scenario.

However, here, the crime is entirely neutral to all of us. And yet we're divided into two camps: those with composure, and those citing violence. That is the very core distinction here.

Of course, citing violence and causing it are very different things. But that's only in this instance - for example, looking at child porn and taking part in child porn are very different. Does that make the observant form (the former) any less severe? No, because they are still practicing in child pornography. You, and angus58, and whoever else has posted in agreement here, are practicing in violence.

That is the quote Joey and it's so true

Like you, Kazanne, I have my own reasons for emotional investment in this issue, and I don't feel the need to justify myself to anyone. If some people can't stop and consider why you or I might feel so passionately about this highly emotive subject, it just goes to show why paedophiles are literally getting away with murder and when it comes to "human rights", the law seems to favour the scum of the earth over the victims. Yes, I will play the parent card, since someone who has never had kids has no idea of the strength and depth of love and protectiveness one feels for your own child. Let's hope the FMs on here, most of whom are still wet behind the ears, never have to face the agony of having their own flesh and blood abused by some predatory paedophile.

The fact that a poster on here has actually asked you if you consider your children an achievement is staggeringly ignorant, and gives great insight into the value they place on a child. There is absolutely NO way that a parent would not do anything to get justice for their abused child IF the judicial system is not prepared to do the job. The FMs on here preaching about compassion and civilised behaviour can preen themselves all they want on their high horses whilst patting each other on the back for being oh so reasonable and superior, but I guarantee if ever such a dreadful thing happened to their own flesh and blood, their attitudes would be entirely different.

Absoloutly sickening, but I completely agree taking the law into your own hands is not the way, although I do understand why people feel that way, especially family and parents.

Good post Shaun.

Post of the week.

How do you know what crime is neutral to people?No one is inciting violence,people write things like that all the time it doesn't mean they would ever carry it out,Have you ever said you would kill someone,most of us have in anger,they are throw away lines and people are taking them too literally,having said that,I have every reason to feel as i do,it's not for this forum,but some criminals are beyond help and a slap on the wrist will never make them behave!!!

Well of course it would be,LOL

People need to read the posts properly - IF the judicial system is not prepared to do the right thing and hand out appropriate and stiff sentences, is it any wonder that the parents and families of abused children want justice for their children? Unfortunately the Law these days is less to do with justice and more to do with technicalities and the "human rights" of the inhuman scum that commit such horrendous crimes.

Quite a number of them do and, because of it being such a taboo subject in today's society, not many in depth studies have been made and it's been fairly neglected by the medical community: there's no real empirical evidence or common practices being used when dealing with Paedophilia. Actually, you should watch Louis Theroux's documentary to see how the States are dealing with the problem... it's laughable and quite pathetic in a way really.

I thimk Angus58 and kazanne have made excellent points on here as to this issue, there is no neutrality on an issue like this, Children cannot speak for themselves so we have to.

All people need to do is think, what if this was their little Brother, Sister, Niece,Nephew, Friends child and more to the point their child being abused,then what would they say.

All kazanne and Angus58 are saying is that the abuse of Children cannot be allowed to go on, the law at present does not deal with this in the way it should.
I hope that will change, but think if it was your child or a child you knew, what would your thinking really be and if being totally honest I doubt it would differ in those circumstances from kazanne and Angus58.

Children need our support and vigilance, nothing maddens me more than a child being abused by people with no excuse and I mean no excuse for doing so.
It is likely the lowest act any one can do against a defenceless child,it can never be justified and on this isuue the punishment can never be severe enough.
Virtually 'none' of the perpetrators of these crimes against children ever want help or think of seeking help as to their 'evil' thoughts until they are caught, fact.

How ironic. People need to read the posts properly, i.e. you. I said I UNDERSTAND why people want justice for their children, but ending someone's life wether their is a reason for it or not is making you a killer whichever way you choose to look at it. We are not here to play God and choose who dies and who does not. We are also not here to strip people of human rights, taking someone's right to food and protection away from them is unethical and inhumane and why would you want to stoop to that level? Loss of freedom is the punishment of prison which many people fail to realise. Besides, where do you draw the line with what is and what isn't worth death? Who are you to make that distinction? And don't spout off to me about me not being a parent and not understanding, just because you have a child doesn't give you the right to be immoral.

I find it amusing that people think we on the net are separate from the real world,they do not think we know people who have suffered or that we are talking from experience,they just assume we are non identities arguing for the sake of it,and yes Angus you can bet if it happened to them they would not be so 'forgiving',You have given us a great debating topic anyway,i got into trouble as usual,but i refuse to agree with people just to appease them.lets hope that little baby is removed and lives a happy safe life.

I did a quick google search and yeah from what I saw it seems that most rehabilitation techniques have poor success rates. I did see some of that Louis Theroux documentary I think, the one where sex offenders are locked up in that mental hospital?

I think you should think before you say those things to Angus.maybe you should re- read her post.a bit of sensitivity here would be nice.

I'm not going to explain myself to you, this is the third time now I have said I completely understand why parents want justice for their children, but killing the perpetrator is not the answer.

But you don't understand, do you? It's an illness... these people are sick and acting on compulsions that are beyond their control. I prefer to think of it rationally rather than indulge in emotion when we're dealing with such a taboo subject.

Look, maybe they'll never be cured, but surely we shouldn't be condoning the torture or death of another human being just because they're beyond help? They were burning people at the stake a few centuries ago for problems that we've found cures for or learned more about through science and analysis.

Yeah, that's the one.

i have not said i wanted them killed!! as Angus explained parents and family get so angry because child murderers ,etc,get an easy ride and get such short sentences,if life meant life,i am sure we involved would all feel better,we get angry because the law is soft.

Death or no death, this is still immoral.

What utter patronising bull****! Your understanding of parenthood is zero if you are equating it to a mere biological function, instead of the lifelong, 24/7 love, care, and protection we give our children. What the ***** do you know about that except from a purely academic point of view? You have then gone on to say that since the children are not YOURS the crime can be viewed as neutral - well there you have the crux of the disagreement between parents and non parents on this forum. Though this crime involved a baby not related to me, BECAUSE I am a parent I can empathise TOTALLY with the parents of that child and I know exactly how they would be feeling and the hatred they feel towards the abuser.

It is very easy to be oh so reasonable and distant when you are NOT emotionally involved. The very least the parents of an abused child should be able to expect is that the judicial system punishes the abuser appropriately which, for me, would be locking them up and throwing away the key.

And just for the record, if you truly think that being a parent is simply dipping your wick and fertilising an egg, I suggest you remain childless. A child deserves total emotional investment, and if you don't GET that, maybe you will when you grow up.

Meanwhile don't bother lecturing me about parenthood - your own statements regarding your understanding of what it is to have a child have betrayed your immaturity and insensitivity so your opinion is pretty much compromised.

As I have explained numerous times,throw away lines ,as people also say they will kill someone,or rip their heads off,people have taken them far to literally!!! we all say these things but most of us would never carry them out.

If you say so.

I do!!

Even if these people are "sick" as opposed to being unbelievably evil and depraved, even more reason to lock them up for good and throw away the key forever. They CANNOT be rehabilitated, they CANNOT be cured, they CANNOT be trusted not to re-offend if released.

BUT the courts are not sentencing these "sick" people appropriately are they?
Nobody is asking anyone else to CONDONE anything - I should imagine if a parent feels failed by the judicial system, the last thing on their mind will be to worry whether others approve of whatever action they might take to get what they might feel is proper justice.

But for everyone you lock up and vilify, there'll be another one born. It's an issue that always has been around andwill never just go away.

I say just kill them. Rehabilitation takes time and OUR money.

Amen.

if the toddler werent found the toddler would have died that day.

Well I'm willing to listen to whatever solution you have - or are you saying we should just let them remain free to run around and carry on abusing children (or in this case practically newborn babies)?

Since we can't execute the bastards, and we can't lock them up for life, what do you suggest is done because one way or another children HAVE to be protected - as adults it is our duty to consider their safety over the rights of paedophiles.

Yes, but according to some on here the adults involved were only having a bit of fun!:rolleyes:

Nothing productive will ever be done when we continue to call them "bastards" and the like. Look, I totally understand where you're coming from, and the resentment and anger you feel towards the individual offender and a negligent judicial system, but like I said before, they'll continue to spring up again and again until we learn more about them through science and observation in a contained enviroment.

I dont hold with this 'ill' nonsense at all, these people often have good jobs and professions ,can well control themselves in public.

The only time we hear the 'ill' notion is when they are caught. They are 'sick' alright but only sick in their actions as to their horrendous crimes against Children.

One day, maybe, the scientists will be able to identify the different genes that cause aberrant behaviours such as paedophilia and no doubt we'll have a whole new set of moral dilemmas to consider, such as should we abort those foetuses that have such and such a gene that might render them a danger to society in the future, or allow them to be born, grow up and perhaps become a serial killer or paedophile? How much is it possible to control the balance of influences between nature and nurture with any degree of certainty?

Till then secure mental hospitals and prisons are the only options available so it is not too much to ask that the judges start handing down punishments that fit the crime.