Well although pro-choice, I think women who chose to get late abortions for next to no reason are utter scum. I am 21 weeks pregnant now, and the thought of it makes me feel seriously ill and really sad for anyone to do it this late, nevermind later. I already have a bond with my baby, I have seen it and felt it...and IMO it would be nothing short of evil to have a termination for anything other than a serious medical reason at this stage

they are scum and it should be illegal. Id also make it a criminal offence to lie about who the father is and to wrongfully make claims off a man who is not the father of the baby

Is that not illegal anyway? Surely that would come under obtaining money by deception or something along those lines?

Ive never heard of any women arrested for this, have you?

Well no, but I wouldnt think its that common to begin with...

(Edit. Having said that, I do know a girl who put someones name down as the father of her child when she knew he wasnt. It wasnt for CSA purposes though, it was so he would bring the child up as his own as its real father was an arsehole. I think thats much worse than doing it for the cash)

Noone tends to get arrested for fraud cases anyway. Usually a fine and community service or something

Also on the same kinda note, you dont hear about fathers being arrested for not paying for kids that ARE theirs either. Which from my experience is a lot more common than your scenario :/

This topic is in serious danger of turning into a sexism thread, its about abortion and the death penalty which is a very interesting subject so im hoping its not going to trail off into a 25 page heated debate about child benefits and Jeremy Kyle type dna test theories.

Great post, abortion should only be allowed in certain cases e.g. for rape victims as mentioned here, and strictly only up 12 weeks or possibly even less. Anything else is morally reprehensible. I've even heard (and this is disgusting beyond belief) young girls say that if they get pregnant they'll 'get rid of it'. Abortion is NOT a form of contraception. Sometimes I despair at today's values ( waves old fogey stick ).

I do agree on the whole with your view on death penalty too Daniel, as the justice system is not infallible and the possibility of an innocent person being put to death is abhorrent. However, in cases where there is no room for doubt, especially when little kids are murdered, then they should be crucified. I'd happily put a bullet in the likes of Ian Huntley.

Being pro-choice and anti-death penalty is a valid stance I think. Just because you believe criminals shouldn't be killed by the state, it doesn't then mean that you believe a fetus has the same rights.

Oh I dont think I made my actual views clear on the death penalty either, which was kidna the point of the thread

I am pro-choice. But think the limit should be way lower than it is except in the case of serious medical complications/illness. My suggestion would be 8 weeks or under for people to just chose. The huge majority would know by that point that they were pregnant.

I am also pro-death penalty. In cases where it can be proven without a doubt that the person is guilty. For example the murder of that soldier in London when it was all on tape and the murderers stuck about. I do however think it is the easy way out..and if prison terms were harsher (life for murder, not 10/15 years) and prisons werent as 'nice' as they are(no TVs, pool tables and playstations), I would see no need for the death penalty.

On a separate note, I would have a special punishment for people who have sex offenses against children. Castration (not sure on the equivelent with women..being sewed up? :laugh: ). Followed by a life sentence/death penalty for a second offense, though I imagine most would be miraculously 'cured' if this was the punishment ;)

But high profile cases don't get let into the general population do they and don't really get the same benefits? I think it's something like 52 people who will never get out. There was a good doc on CI called 'When life means life' or something like that.

Ahhh found the list: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...e-life_tariffs

Not sure about benefits, but the sentences even in high profile cases seem to not be actual life. Look at that jon venables kid. Yeah he was a child when he did it, but he re-offended and was let out a second time.

Even in not high profile cases though, murder should mean life in prison to me :shrug:

From your link

'Likely' to me is not good enough for murder. Especially for a child killer.

There would be mass uproar if those got out I'm sure. I was just pointing out though that everyone on that list would've probably been put to death if the death penalty was in the UK and that there's no chance they'd get out now they're finally locked up, so prison does do its job in that sense. I know there's the child killers bit but I imagine that's slim if none.

But I do agree that murder should mean definite life in most cases.

Its absolutely insane the amount of fight we put up against killing mass murderers or the energy and money and time we spent arguing for the rights of butterflies to live in green areas yet here we have 170,000 innocent babies murdered every year and no one in power gives a damn. anyone remember when nadine dorres tried to make a speech and ask a question on this in parliament but was shouted down and laughed and , and a sneering david camerons pitiful spineless response amidst the heckling was "oh I give up" yes you sure did cameron you gave up on hundreds of thousands of murdered babies.

You probably kill millions of sperm every day, isn't that according to your logic potentially millions of half-babies?

Not really seeing as sperm don't morph into babies lol unless im totally dumb we are neither sperm nor egg just a chemical reaction created when they meet.

Did you think that before we were born we were sperm who lived in our fathers testicles?

Does anyone here remember anything about being a baby? Babies have no intelligence. They are not people. Stop talking about them as if they are people. They aren't even self aware. Most animals have more intelligence than a baby. A fetus/baby doesn't know the difference between being alive or dead.

That's horrendous

Very interesting point Alex, when do you think we become "self aware" 3yrs old , 4...or 5 or even older ?

Should toddlers be fair game for abortion or termination by that logic if the parents "change" their minds about wanting to bring them up ??

Well exactly - I'm not really sure why this would even matter. Unless we're going to start supporting the murder of unwanted babies now, too. In fact theres a pretty good case to be made for some ADULTS not being self aware.

...although, it does remind me of a South Park episode when Cartmans mum takes him (aged 7) to the abortion clinic and asks for an abortion. Heh.

i think everyone should be sterilized. imho.

solve the problem once and for all.

Where's cloning? we should reproduce by cloning already, do we have the technology to do that yet?

I don't want to have to have a HALF child, i want an exact replica of myself. This is the year 2014, were's cloning???

seriously though, why aren't we cloning yet? we had a cloned sheep in the 90's, then we haven't heard anything about it since.

I know some adults like that.

I dont know where to start with this post...

Most people dont remember anything from before being 2/3...should it be ok to just kill your child because of this?

People arent self aware when pissed..so is it ok to murder them aslong as they are bladdered at the time?

:laugh2: Of course

i'm just saying, if i die when i'm so pissed that i don't know if i'm alive or dead, then yea, that sounds like a good way to die. Cause I won't be around to put any more thought into it. i won't even know any better, like a baby. i hope that's how i die.

I don't think y'all understand the concept of oblivion.

It's not cruel to take life away from something that's not even really living. If it doesn't even know that it's alive, then how can you take life away from it?

Good point - when someone's on life support, it's more or less a futile effort to keep their body working in the unlikely event that their brain wakes up at some indeterminate point down the line... if you turn it off, are they even going to be aware that they're dying?

you get it.

The vast majority of the universe is not self aware.

Am I living in an alternate universe?.. So the theory is if you can't fend for yourself you should just die?
The very old, the very young, the physically and or mentally incapable?.. where does it end? I guess with the extinction of the species.

God I love that program. Or the one where he's on a talk show telling everyone "my mom ****ed me right there in the Best Buy" (because she wouldn't buy him an iPad) and everyone's booing her :laugh3:

I know this is going to be controversial, but as it's women who get pregnant, who carry the child, give birth and in many cases care for that child alone, the decision should be left to the woman. Men can have a say, but the final word must be the woman's. There are so many unwanted and unloved children in this world, maybe people's efforts would be better spent in improving the lot of those children instead of blackmailing women into having a child they do not want.

The only certainty in life is death. :shrug: Everyone dies at some point. There are all sorts of moral and ethical debates about the right to life, so many that it's impossible to ever be 'right' or 'wrong' in my opinion. If someone's in a coma for years (e.g. Ariel Sharon) - are they really alive anymore?

No I completely agree with you. In the case of a couple in a relationship and the woman falling pregnant, I can see why it would be a joint decision - but it's the woman who has to go through with the pregnancy, it should always be her right to determine whether or not she carries that baby to term and raises it.

I don't think that's controversial at all. Most civilized countries agree.

\as a man, the less i have to hear about it the better.

I've got no problem with that at all. Your body, Your decision.

No blackmailing but making it easier to have a child they may be concerned about supporting. clearly many women and men feel there is NOt a support structure or enough advice nor enough time given to would be parents who are struggling with the expected birth of a child. often financial pressures are the main concern. these can be aleviated over time but a dead baby can never come back. better to help save lives than save short term financial issues.

Yes but the debate here is whether it's right to kill someone before they've had a chance to live?
Of course everyone dies at some point.. you're just stating the obvious there.
People come out of comas.. the brain repairs as it's shut down that's what a coma is.
So yes, they are alive and in a state of stasis whilst the reconstruction of neural pathways occurs. There's always a chance that the body may be too aged or weak to be supported during this time and die anyway.

How about giving kids in care, kids in orphanages in desperately poor parts of the world, kids working at the age of five or six... kids who are written off as soon as they're born because they're not wanted by anyone. How about worrying about them instead of insisting women be encouraged to bring another unwanted, unloved child into the world because society thinks she should.

Because everyone would end up related and inbred. This post has to be a joke right?

If your heart is naturally beating and you can move and have brain activity that is the very definition of living.

Its not a state of mind its scientific fact that abortion is killing a living being.