New Labour was awful to the Middle East that I can agree on.

But as selfish as this sounds I care about myself and this country first and foremost and these right wing parties are out to destroy the working class and disabled people, at least we had treats and benefited under New Labour which is more important than how they treat a few countries right? I know that sounds cruel but it's survival of the fittest at the end of the day.

They just can't stop can they?... Were you a bigoted conservative who has a backward middle English outlook? then UKIP want you! :/

'The UK Independence Party says it has expelled one of its councillors "for bringing the party into disrepute".

Rozanne Duncan is understood to have used highly racially offensive language during filming for a BBC documentary to be broadcast in February.

The party did not give the reasons for Ms Duncan's expulsion but said she had 28 days to appeal.

She sits on Thanet District Council in Kent, where she was UKIP group deputy leader.

Ms Duncan won the council seat, in the Cliftonville East ward, in a by-election in May 2013.

She had previously stood as a Conservative candidate.'

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-30576857

I think it shows a party who acts quick to combat prejudice. I wish the other parties acted in this responsible manner. Well dome UKIP, again. :clap2:

This is a really interesting post Mock.

I agree with the basis on the thinking of near all of it.
I agree labour made very big mistakes as to the Middle East, but there were other mistakes in that area too, which were also created by the former President Bush and our Conservative govt. led by Margaret Thatcher and then John Major at that time too.
had they gone about things better and more productively, they could have ensured a possible unlikelihood as to a return to Iraq.

As to your point as to the destruction of the working class and disabled people, sadly under this present govt, that all has a ring of truth to it.

As you pointed out,although the word treats is not what I would use, Labour did realise more needed to be done for those at the poorer end and those most vulnerable.
Pension credit was a massive boost to those aged 60 and over as a top up to income and pensions, the winter fuel allowance awarded at £200+ to help with fuel bills for those on very low incomes too was very welcome.
The increasing too for the vulnerable of cold weather payments,increased from the miserly £8+ whatever it was under the Conservatives up to £25 for every 7 day freezing or below freezing period.
I can support the thinking that some of those benefits, winter fuel allowance and cold weather payments could now be halted for those with much larger incomes and more to the point substantial savings too.

Contrast those actions with this hateful heartless govt. taking away entitlements from those on housing benefit with the bedroom 'tax'.with no other properties for them to go to, and them then having to pay the loss of the housing benefit out of benefits, which all govts. had previously separately said they had to have to live on.

There was touted about,the term 'social cleansing' as to this govts. policies,not justified in my view at tha start of this govt.as to the severity of the term and what it could really mean, however this govt. has over the years gone on to attack and hit the weakest, poorest, most vulnerable working or unemployed,disabled and sick, even the incurably and terminally ill people too.

Which either demonstrates clearly the real thinking of this truly nasty govt. or a very cowardly govt. that can only take action and crush even more the weakest in society

Good points you raised Mock,and for me the rise of UKIP has only made the Conservative party come across even worse as they seem to try to match UKIP.
Then therein lies another very sinister question and thought,if the Conservatives are by their policies trying to outdo UKIP now, then clearly UKIPs policies for the groups who are in the most need and most vulnerable must be absolutely horrific for those most vulnerable and at the lower end of the earnings scale as to their future.

A thought I hope many will hold onto in the polling booths in May 2015 and take action to ensure this rotten govt, and more to the point the sinister and worrying UKIP party with its probable 'hidden agenda', are all soundly rejected at that election and sent packing.

It's not great that the majority of the parties representatives share these views though is it? You could almost get the feeling that the party attracts these views due to their policies (policy) which is mainly xenophobia dressed as 'adult' debate.
They are the most right wing you can get without falling over, and are only just managing to maintain a veil of respectability...just.

I do think and hope even moreso that the UKIP mask is slipping now and as more scrutiny is applied to them, more of these 'views' become apparant.
Which in turn also exposes what some of those in the Conservative party would like to see done too, hence 2 defections to and former Conservative voters backing UKIP.

The mask too, of blaming everything, no matter what it may be, on being in the EU and on immigration is now going from the sublime to the ridiculous.

:clap1:

hardly joey, lets not kid ourself about "scrutiny" etc - editors have told journos that UKIP stories are golddust and "go get them"

they are the flavour of the month and people want to use these stories to pigeon hole UKIP like people are doing in this thread

Lets ignore the fact that Farage speaks more sense than all 3 main leaders do and has been a welcome breath of fresh air to a failing political system - and just be vile about some fringe candidates etc.


It makes me think that people have forgotten about the antics of labour and the tories over the last decade?

unbelievable

Cameron and Millipede should be heaping congratulations on Farage for rescuing the reputation of the "Politician" from the toilet bowl where it was prior to his arrival.

And people try to sit here and say the party isn't a racist organisation :worry:

what happened in the middle east does affect us, terrorism has grown out of all kinds of control since our illegal incursions...the fact we preach about PC words yet bomb millions illegally makes us look like the complete and utter charlatans of the world. then again we brits have always been condescending preachy hypocritical monarchy kissing twats
also you say you care about the disabled yet say its survival of the fittest? major contradiction in your values there. new labour were pure evil. theyll sell anything for a cheap vote and to hell with the long term. as for the disabled theyre not worse off now than before, its a lie. theyve simply taken off idiots and the millions of workless chavs off the benefits that new labour spoon fed. new labour actively encouraged lazy twats to milk benefits and now we reap the benefits of a workless generation

With full respect to you The TRUTH, that may well be the case where you happen to be but from all I have come across in my dealings with the disabled on a legal basis since graduation, it is far from what I see.

The disabled are having to battle in courts to get benefits restored that were wrongly removed from them, there was a case where someone was on income support, were told they would have to now claim ESA, they did, they were told in their view, on a paper decision, they were fit for work and would need to claim Jobseekers, they tried but were told they were too ill to claim Jobseekers yet were told they were too fit to claim ESA.
It got settled after months of having hardly any income.

Charities, the CAB and welfare groups will happily tell you that the disabled and sick are far worse off now than they were 4 years ago due to the benefits changes.

Add to that,those who need the old DLA, now PIP. when they claim, many have had 6 to 9 months wait before even getting a decision.

The disabled and sick have been caused massive, unjust and unnecessary stress and worry as to the benefit changes.
Furthermore, it is pointed out in all analysis and on all programmes dealing with benefit issues, that only 0.8% of claimants are believed to be claiming wrongly or cheating the system.
That leaves 99.2% doing it right and claiming their just entitlements.

It is the demonisation and scapegoating of those on benefits as to being scroungers and fraudsters that is the real big lie from this rotten heartless govt.
The facts of the matter are that all those involved in the support of those disabled and sick,regularly say the disabled and sick are suffering now, losing out bigtime due to this govts. benefits changes.
Reforms which are saving very little,often if anything at all but which are costing near the earth to do.

I have to keep this carefully said but we got it sorted,not actually me myself but the law firm I am with,one case which was that someone on chemotherapy was told by the so called 'health assessors' as to ESA, that because they only got Chemotherapy every 10 days, that left days they could actually do some work.
They were really ill after chemotherapy, far weaker than they usually are but that just demonstrates what is going on all over the place.

I am glad people where you are, from what you say above, are not having that horrific nightmare to deal with but over probably most of the rest of the Country,I am afraid you would find the opposite of what you describe is more likely the real happenings of what is going on.
Sorry to disagree with you as often I think you make fair points but I know from all I have seen across the UK as to the sick and disabled, that more than are not, have been and still are, far worse off than before.
Only because of this govts. benefit reforms, nothing else.

It is why I have dedicated the greater part of my time since graduating in law to do all I can to help and advise these people, how to deal with and fight this rotten heartless govt. as to going through the courts to do so if necessary, to get their rightful benefits, that should never have been tampered with anyway, fully restored to them.

:clap1:

A brilliant post Joey.

Also to The Truth, how am I contradicting myself that looking after the UK should be more of a priority for the UK Government than how they treat other countries? Of course our Government shouldn't alienate every country, but it's more important to have your people on side (including the disabled) and looked after so they don't hate your guts and you can't win Elections which is what keeps happening to these right wing parties because they behave like Dinosaurs, they're disgusting Human Beings that deserve all the abuse that they get.

the person with chemptherapy is an horrific story and yet another example of idiot politicians, heartless civil servants and the nightmare of big government ...........ive not read many specifics of such horror stories and would be interested to learn more, pls post links and i promise to read them all.....as for the vast majority of disabled people have you interviewed a cross section of disabled people and other people who have lost their benefits?

This government is a tory libs alliance nothing to do with ukip
secondly theyve targeted the workless millions who are able to work and do NOT have disabilities. theyve assessed millions and the vast majority of genuine cases people kept their benefits. in some cases theyve actually increased. however government always makes mistakes and theyve clearly made many. and in these cases these mistakes can be a matetr of life and death for thousands...however there is also an appeals procedure though hos taxing that is on the disabled is another question, I hope and pray the most vulnerable arent being exploited here.....

the moral issue here is disabled benefits are for the disabled not the workless demotivated people whose parents have patently failed to instill into them a work ethic and an ambition to better their lives. a line has to be drawn here , it is a moral line and career politicians have ducked moral issues for years...they tend to go with the crowd as do civil servants and even social workers simply to further their careers and keep their heads down.mavericks tend to be shooting stars who make and impact and get quietly moved aside

clearly this corrupting of the welfare state is partly as a result of broken homes and the entitlement culture. the lax drugs laws or rather the lax implementation of them has seen drug use and drug related crime go through the roof, this is also relevant to the cultural collapse in our society....the crime per head ratios in the UK are staggeringly higher than the US. under new labour the truth was buried under a super sized state. big government is one of the scariest things on mother earth. it measures what is spent, it measures what it achieves to promote itself, but it never measures the true damage done socially and economically through its wasteful ill conceived unaccountable spending.

why dont politicians speak of council waste, small government waste all over the UK? why are roads endless dug up by the gas board, then weeks later, the electricity board, then weeks later, the sewerage, weeks later, the water, then the tarmackers fill in the pot holes weeks later...then the gas board are back again? why dont these departments ever merge and simply try and unite and dig the roads up the same time whenever possible? does anyone ever measure how many billions this hurts our economy? the waste is endless and it hurts every other part of society


this goes for the utterly disastrous european constitution and the euro itself too............the US constitution is 15 pages, the EU one is 587 pages and no one has ever read it in full. chucking in 30 odd ancient nations with a mass of different cultures , climates, economies, wealth, natural resources, laws , etc etc all into one massive pile with one size fits all currency and laws for all, is insane enmasse.....if you want an analogy consider the EU is titanic, the iceberg is only 5 minutes away, but it will take the EU about 5 years to decide what to do and how to do it.....the ship has too many captains, no real leadership. no dorection, it has to go to a committee vote and some nations have the veto, some want to jump ship but dont have fishing or swimming rights etc etc guess what happens next.........its too big too burocratic too wasteful too unaccountable....frankly its horrifying

Joey raises excellent points as always and I would ask the UKIP supporters where they are on welfare and workers rights, the onus is on immigration so much what else do they propose will improve England?

Agree with this. Especially the last part.

where are you on those topics? 8 million in 15 years, how do you propose we cope with another 8 million

Exactly.... They seemed to have forgotten that they work for us the voting public, at least Farage seems to have remembered that.




.

Yes they do, therefore you would have thought that the UKIP candidates wouldn't do so much to alienate huge swathes of the electorate.....

Your quite hysterical opening gambit sets the style of this discussion but I will not reciprocate and will, instead, remain cool, rational, and factual - as always;

I would rather be accused of ‘hyperbole’ than actually be guilty of not only ‘making molehills out of mountains’, but also of being in a state of denial that the mountains even exist in the first place as you, and others on here sadly are.

I cannot answer your response in one post because its length would be prohibitive, so I will deal with each one separately, but before I do, I would like to state certain facts;

When it comes to formulating opinion – on any subject - we are all reliant on the same factors; intuition, inherent prejudices, and preferences shaped from our environment whilst growing up, direct personal knowledge gleaned through our own life experiences, and indirect knowledge learnt from reading, watching and listening.

There is nothing else. None of us are privy to the absolute truth.

Yet there is a vast difference between a biased opinion which is blinkered by political zealousness, and one that is detached from any political affiliation and which is purely objective as a result.

I’m afraid that you, and others like you belong to the first category, whilst I - for the following reasons - irrefutably belong to the latter.

'Inherent prejudices, and preferences shaped from our environment whilst growing up':

I was born and raised in poverty. My father – like his father and grandfather – was a coal miner and a life-long Labour supporter, so I grew up steeped in left wing politics, and was an active and avid Labour voter since before I was old enough to vote.

As I grew older and went into business and became moderately successful, my political stance did not change. I went on various marches, picket lines, and even wrote articles for certain Left-Wing publications.

During the 1984 – 85 ‘Miners Strike’, I owned a small ‘mini market’ in a suburb, and every week for almost a year, I allowed the wives of striking miners to fill boxes with provisions from my shelves for their strike fund in addition to personally donating as much cash as I could afford.

I stayed loyal to Labour until I became totally disenchanted with ‘New Labour’ under Tony Blair, after which, my votes wavered between Green, to no voting at all, then Tory.

'Direct personal knowledge gleaned through our own life experiences':
A sure-fire recipe for disaster in business is when a ‘Capitalist’ head is ruled by a ‘Socialist’ heart, and it takes a very special business person to successfully correlate the two. Unfortunately, I am not one.

I have been self employed for many years and some years ago directly employed 11 Polish ‘Tradesmen’ through a firm called 'Baltic Recruitment', paying considerable fees in the process.

I don’t care a fig if you believe me or not, but it transpired that of the 11 - 4 had faked their qualification documents and references, and were not tradesmen, 6 were thieves who were regularly stealing my stock on a grand scale and selling it, and 9 out the 11 were devious bastards who took on jobs on the side, using my vehicles and my tools, my equipment, and materials, and carried such jobs out during working hours when they should have been doing my work which I was paying them for.

As none of this came to light in a matter of days, it nearly ruined me financially, and they acted as they did despite the fact that I had provided good quality housing for them (not the shared squats they had all been living in under other employers) and spent thousands of pounds kitting them out with leisure clothing, work clothing and other personal effects, and treat them like 'friends' in every respect.

I have also been a landlord for many years and about 9 or 10 years ago – in line with ‘Market Forces’ – my properties had been let increasingly to immigrants.

With one exception – a Lithuanian family - these lets have been unmitigated disasters and also ended up virtually bankrupting me.

I personally let one 4 bedroom, fully refurbished property in Doncaster, to a Polish couple with 2 small children at a ‘Below Market’ value rent because I had a degree of sympathy for them because he worked but was on a low wage. After just 2 months of receiving the rent, it stopped, and they ended up owing me thousands of pounds over a year.

To cut a long story short, when I did eventually regain possession of my property, I discovered that they had been illegally sub-letting ‘shared’ rooms in the house to 13 other Poles at £50.00 per week each – yes that’s nearly £32,000 per year, yet they did not even pay their £4,800 per year rent to me. In addition, I had to pay for a locksmith to gain entry as they had illegally changed the locks and the property was virtually a wreck which cost me well over £12,000 to remedy before I could re-let the property.

I also had the same problem with some other properties, and as I was to learn, this problem of 'immigrant' tenants sub-letting properties was a nationwide problem.

Another modernised detached in Kent which was let to another Polish working ‘family’ had £28,000 of damage done to it as result of it being used as a ‘Farm’ to grow Cannabis.

Ditto a 3 bed terrace in Sheffield let to Latvians and £8,000 worth of damage.

Ditto a 3 bed flat in Birmingham let to Albanians with £15,000 of damage and hundreds in unpaid rent.

Ditto a 3 bed Detached in Nottingham let to Poles with £20,000 of damage and thousands in unpaid rent.

Need I list more?

Many other landlords have suffered the same experiences - they are very, very common.

In addition, and as previously stated on other threads, my business (and ensuing leisure) activities, have brought me into regular direct personal contact with Asians and ‘Foreign born’ Eastern Europeans over a number of years, and involved travelling abroad as well as travel within the UK, and as a result, let’s just say, that I have not only become familiar with their attitudes and their morals, but also covertly become ‘aware’ of certain of their practices.

'Indirect knowledge learnt from reading, watching and listening':

Though it should be remembered that all 'official' immigration statistics are 'manipulated' downwards for 'damage limitation' purposes, here are a few facts gleaned by the above - 'pick 'n mix' them as you want;

"90 per cent of all immigrants to the UK head to England."

"Since the UK opened its borders to Romanian and Bulgarian immigrants, it has become themost densely populated country in the EU, and the most overcrowded major country in Europe".

"Population growth is so rapid that four times as many people are crammed into just England as France and nearly twice as many as Germany.

Number of people living per square kilometre in 2015 - by country
• England - 419
• Holland - 408
• Wales - 258
• Germany - 226
• Italy - 205
• N. Ireland - 130
• Poland - 123
• Portugal - 116
• France - 105
• Romania - 89
• Bulgaria - 66
• Scotland – 40

" By 2046, an astonishing 494 people will be living in each square kilometre (in England), compared to 115 for France, 204 for Germany, and 120 for Poland – where an estimated one million of the arrivals under Labour ‘s ‘Open Door Policy’ originated from."

(This figure is ridiculously understated - there are millions more Polish living in in the UK , as those indigenous British whose communities they live in full well know.)

"Net migration nearly quadrupled from 48,000 in 1997 to 185,000 in 2003. Once the East Europeans had been granted free movement in 2004 it peaked at 320,000 in the year ending June 2005."

('Peaked' at 320,000 in June 2005 - almost 10 years ago - what is the real figure now?)

"The latest ONS provisional estimates of Long Term International Migration (LTIM) show that net migration stood at 260,000 in the year ending June 2014. This is up from 182,000 in the year ending June 2013. This was a statistically significant increase."

(Significant increase? Even allowing for the fact that all .’official’ figures are ‘massaged’ downwards for ‘damage limitation’ purposes, this figure is a joke – more than 260,000 immigrants flooded into just Yorkshire, Lancashire, and Lincolnshire last year, never mind the rest of the country.)

"The UK population is projected to grow by over 9 million (9.4m) in just 25 years’ time, increasing from 64 million in 2013 to 73 million by 2039. Of this increase, about two thirds is projected to be due to future migrants and their children - the equivalent of the current populations of Birmingham, Leeds, Sheffield, Bradford, Manchester, Edinburgh, Liverpool, Bristol, Cardiff, Newcastle, Belfast and Aberdeen".

(Again, these figures are understated.)

"Government figures show 3.8million people came to Britain from abroad between 1997 and 2010 - more than the 3.7million who came during the previous 50 years."

(More immigrants flooded into Britain in three years than the total for the previous 50 years! Think about that. )

"The breakdown comes from an analysis of the ten-yearly census carried out in March 2011. The figures have already revealed that at the time there were almost half a million more people living in the country than previously suspected".

"More than half of those arrived over the ten years since 2001, according to analysis of the 2011 census."

(These figures do not take into account the 4 years since that 2011 Census, nor the fact that no census is comprehensive because tens of thousands of residents do not participate in such information giving. Then there are the million or so illegal immigrants who certainly do not.)

"Britain’s total illegal population is by its nature very difficult to measure but a report by the London School of Economics in 2009 gave an upper estimate of 863,000."

(In 2009 a figure of 863,000 was low, but taking into account the influx from Easter Europe in the 6 years since, it is not now even the tip of the iceberg.)

"UK's Roma population is much higher than previously thought. New research estimates that there are 200,000 Roma living in the UK, despite government claims that "relatively few" had settled in the country."

(Again, a very low estimate.)

"In 2013 over half a million migrants arrived in Britain, more than the total population of Bradford."

"Net migration into the UK increased by more than 38% to 243,000 in 2013-14, government statisticians have said. The ONS said the increase in overall net migration was "statistically significant", meaning it is "very likely to reflect real changes in migration patterns".

"The number of migrants from Romania and Bulgaria increased from 12,000 to 28,000 over the period. Employment restrictions on citizens of the two countries were lifted in January"

(A 38% increase is certainly "statistically significant", so how much more "statistically significant" would the real, much higher figures be?)

"EU citizens - including an increased number from Romania and Bulgaria - accounted for two-thirds of the growth from the previous figure of 175,000.
Separate figures showed over 25% of births in England and Wales last year were to mothers themselves born abroad."

"There was also a rise in the proportion of people in the UK who were born overseas."

"According to the migration figures from the Office for National Statistics, a total of 560,000 immigrants arrived in the UK over the 12-month period to March - An increasing number came to the UK to join family members."

"For the first time in nearly three years, the number of people migrating to the UK from outside the EU increased, to 265,000. All the figures are for the 12-month period up to March."

(So on top of astronomical numbers of immigrants from within the EU, we are also witnessing huge increases in non-EU immigration into the UK.)

"Every year for the past 20, more people have been arriving in the UK than leaving. The reasons for those movements are complex and have regularly changed."

"As the British economy grows faster than other parts of Europe, workers will continue to arrive - and the net migration target moves further and further out of reach."

(This is highly significant; because it means that we suffer an increasing influx of ‘worker’ immigrants during a booming economy, or suffer an increasing influx of ‘shirker’ immigrants if our economy is faltering. Either way we are dammed.)
.................................................. .................

So; far from being ‘Hyperbole’, my post is closer to the truth than the deliberately ‘doctored’ low figures on immigration from official and pro-left sources - as the overwhelming documentary statistical evidence proves – if one approaches such evidence with a completely open mind, and one is willing to also ‘read between the lines’ of official statistics and statements.

I have lived longer than you, so have greater life experience. I have been poor, comparatively wealthy, then poor again. I have been both employed and an employer. I have a great wealth of direct experience with immigrants – both on a personal and business level – and an insight into their attitudes, affiliations and morality. I have no rigid political stance – preferring to vote because of specific elements in given manifestos rather than blind support for any party irrespective of its policies or lack of them, or because of any irrational detestation of other parties due to ill-founded preconceptions about their ideologies.

The above being true, my views on unfettered immigration and its catastrophic effects on this country, are not shaped by racism or fascism, but borne of patriotism for this great democratic country and a genuine love of its indigenous people – a people who are not only endangered but doomed if the minority left wing extremists have their way and immigration continues unfettered.

And ‘minority’ in this democratic country is what such ‘left wing extremists’ are – as the excerpt below attests:

“The public have, for many years now, expressed their concern about levels of immigration and the impact that this had on housing, public services, and the labour market. 94% of Britons think that Britain is ‘full up’ and 79% of people in England think that England is ‘overcrowded’. While the public are sufficiently nuanced to welcome highly skilled workers and students to our best universities, they are aware of the impacts of high levels of immigration on public services with 76% believing that immigration has placed too much pressure on health, transport and education and 69% believing that immigration has had a negative impact on the availability of housing. We must build a new home every seven minutes for new migrants for the next 20 years or so.”

The above being so, the ‘left wing extremist’ view on immigration is just one more example of an ‘active’ vociferous minority trying to impose their will upon the passive majority – a la the hackers with the Sony ‘The Interview’ incident, and every terrorist organisation in human history.

Just as with the above examples, God help the UK if the ‘left wing extremists’ succeed in stifling the views of the majority and in intimidating politicians and the media into not addressing immigration, or telling the truth about it, for fear of being labelled 'racist' by hysterical loonies or sinister organisations with covert agendas.

Ditto with 'right wing loonies, your experiences are unfortunate but it comes from,and this is harsh but your own desire to exploit from what I can see.
Employing low paid workers using a recruitment firm with no way of exploring quals and references adequately when in the north tradesmen and ex miners are crying out for jobs.
Renting your properties to similar low paid workers and then blackening the whole of eastern Europe when said handful are found to be unsuitable.
Cutting corners, paying dodgy firms set up for profit are a recipe for disaster and you were stung, it's a life lesson perhaps that the toryboy life comes with it's own pitfalls?

Quote: ArchAngel;7436025]"Ditto with 'right wing loonies, your experiences are unfortunate but it comes from,and this is harsh but your own desire to exploit from what I can see."


What? :shrug:

Is it some type of sickness with you lefties? How do you conclude what you have written from what I actually posted?

How do you justify that it was my "own desire to exploit from what I can see." from what I wrote?

I had no desire to "exploit" anyone and never intimated as much nor stated as much and it is either dishonesty or arrogance to presume otherwise. The fact is that I paid all the Polish workers the same rate as my English ones - above industry pay rates.

"Employing low paid workers using a recruitment firm with no way of exploring quals and references adequately when in the north tradesmen and ex miners are crying out for jobs."


"Employing low paid workers" is yet more pure blinkered left wing political arrogance and unjustified assumption and I have dealt with this above.

I used a recruitment firm because at the time I am referring to there was an economic boom and the property market had soared to record levels, which meant that new building and construction was also at record breaking levels, which meant that there was a dearth of qualified and skilled English construction and building workers. As my business was also booming, and in accordance with other companies, I had no real choice but to use 'foreign' construction tradesmen. Ex miner's hardly fitted the bill. Would you have been happy to pay me if I had used ex miners to refurbish your house and the standard of workmanship was botched because they weren't tradesmen?

Maybe you would have stayed true to your 'lefty at all costs mentality' and thought; "Oh well, it's OK because they're ex-miners", but somehow, I think not. .

As for "using a recruitment firm with no way of exploring quals and references" how do you know any of the facts to be able to state this?

You don't. But then, when do left wing extremists ever let the truth and facts get in the way of their ideology?

The facts are that it was a British company, was British based, and had great reviews from other builders who had used it. Nowhere in my post do I attribute any blame to this company - only to the Poles who furnished the fake but expertly faked - CV documents, references and qualifications, which I did check and which the recruitment agency checked. .

It transpired that a company in Poland was creating just such documents for Poles to help them land jobs here and the same company had operatives answering mail, e mail and telephone enquiries from British employers carrying out 'Due Diligence' and following up references.

"Renting your properties to similar low paid workers and then blackening the whole of eastern Europe when said handful are found to be unsuitable.
Cutting corners, paying dodgy firms set up for profit are a recipe for disaster and you were stung, it's a life lesson perhaps that the toryboy life comes with it's own pitfalls?"

LMAO :joker: -- If your posts are typical of Labour supporters now, then there's no wonder that no one in this country takes Labour seriously anymore, and no wonder that the 'Left' are disproportionately worried by UKIP and the fact that the majority of the 'Great British Public' now identify more with some of its policies than those of Labour or the Tories, because you continue to misread what is written, rewrite what you misread, and jump to conclusions about an article - the analysis of which, clearly shows no justification for such conclusions. :shrug:

I wrote of one example where I rented one property to one low-paid worker, and I lowered the rent considerably from the going Market Rent, because he was low-paid. But typically for a blinkered lefty who cares nothing for the truth, instead of applauding me for an act which should be close to your socialist heart, you choose to try to cynically distort the truth of what I wrote, to make it appear that I am actually exploiting the low paid in order to make it fit your anti-capitalist dogmatic viewpoint.

Shame on you. :nono:

As for: "blackening the whole of eastern Europe when said handful are found to be unsuitable."

Firstly; I have never referred to 'just a handful' anywhere in my post. I made it perfectly clear that I was not even listing the full extent of my repeated experiences with immigrant tenants by my use of the question; "Need I list more". In addition, I repeatedly stated that the problems which I encountered were not exclusive to me, but were "Nationwide" and that; "Many other landlords have suffered the same experiences - they are very, very common."

Where does this suggest "a handful"? - which even to a left winger must mean the number 5 (5 digits?).

Secondly; I never referred to "the whole of Eastern Europe" - you 'lefties' really must stop cynically misconstruing facts to suit your agenda - I was referring specifically to 'immigrant Eastern Europeans'.

Immigrants.

You know - those fit, strong, healthy, and able, 18 to 30 something males which first 'fled' to this country in their tens of thousands as 'asylum seekers', having passed several other 'safe' haven countries to do so, and having left women and children behind and at the mercy of those 'persecuting' them back in their own countries. Or not.

Immigrants.
You know. The opportunists who have flocked here in their millions - as opposed to those other less mercenary, less opportunist Eastern Europeans who have remained in their own countries, whom I am not referring to and haven't.

As for: "Cutting corners, paying dodgy firms set up for profit are a recipe for disaster and you were stung, it's a life lesson perhaps that the toryboy life comes with it's own pitfalls?"

I have never "cut corners" on anything which I do - the length and comprehensiveness of my posts are an indication of that - and I pride myself on my very hard work initiative (I regularly worked up to 16 hours per day and still do) and the fact that I am meticulous in everything which I do.

Nor did I "pay dodgy firms" - I paid the going fees for a service to a reputable firm which did nothing wrong but were misled by organised foreign fraudsters - as are all British Banks - but that's another post.

As for; "and you were stung, it's a life lesson perhaps that the toryboy life comes with it's own pitfalls?" Oh boy - a lot of you 'Lefties' cannot conceal your bitterness - it permeates everything which you spout and do. (I mean 'lefties by the way and not all 'Labour' supporters because there is a difference).

I am not, and have never been a 'Toryboy'. Yes - I have voted Tory, as I have voted 'Green' and as I have mostly voted Labour, because, as I have stressed, I am not some rigid extremist who slavishly - and irrationally - follows any party blindly just because that is what I have always done.

I have very little regard for any politician, and never have had - apart from Enoch Powell and Tony Benn, whose integrity and sincerity was beyond question, and who both talked a lot of sense but who were pilloried and ostracised and marginalised by less sincere and lesser politicians for their 'lack of moderation'.

Anyway; before I leave you to carry on looking at life's reality with your vision severely restricted by your 'blinkers' , and your ability to actually read posts, then recognise what is actually being stated before misconstruing, misquoting and mis-presuming, in serious question, I will point out to you; that you are so blinded by your own skewed dogma, that you actually miss the point of what I, LeatherTrumpet, The Truth , and others are saying - that we are not advocating a total ban on all immigration, just tighter controls in order to halt the flood.

We are not blaming all the problems which beset this country on immigrants - we are saying that unfettered immigration adds to those problems.

We cannot afford unfettered immigration.

Our services are underfunded now and at breaking point.

We are a comparatively tiny island and have not the space which unfettered immigration dictates. We have only the land we have - they are not making anymore.

Now I have work to do. Bye. :wavey:

I'm sorry it just seems so contradictory to suggest in one breath that you sought out men to work and live in the UK, and in the next breath be moaning that Mr Foreigner is taking all the work and space... :conf:

reverse racism is a massive problem in the uk and does as much damage as racism itself...most of the this reverese racism just like reverse sexism comes from the labour party

its hilarious how the far left lunatics running this assylum preach about business and raising wages and their exaggerations about employing illegal immigrants cheap, theyve never run businesses never had the balls to employ people which is why they know absolutely nothing about business...they exist in the fantasy world of the public secotr where the figures never add up, the accounts are always late, the debts are always bigger and never paid off....and of course they all close at 4.30pm and get drunk for a fortnight every Christmas..........if the whole country was run like local government wed all be 6 foot under. thank God for the free market

I though we were discussing the reverse tolerance of UKIP?

reverse constipation is good, you should try it

It's bad enough listening to it on here :laugh:

Hi Kirklancaster, I just want to say although I don't always agree with you I did really enjoy your post,a lot of info there and I was pleased to hear of your role during the Miners strike times too.

I think to be fair on a couple of things.
Labour will find it hard to win over great numbers after the problems at the end of the last Labour govt.
In fact it is hard for any party after going out of office to be voted back after only one term in opposition because that trust again is withheld,even though the mood has softened.
I too would have had no time for Tony Blair,which is why I am pleased with the direction Ed Miliband is taking labour now overall, not totally.

However, I do not think it is only the left who push forward their agenda as to the EU and immigration, I think in fact, the right, from this govt. those with power and influence and then the media particularly give a totally distorted presentation of the EU and immigration with their prejudiced agenda.
So much so,that I believe for the ordinary voter, there will be no chance at all of a straightforward informative and fair debate possible as to the EU and immigration.

I also think this present disaster of a PM with his procrastination as to the EU and immigration and indeed failure as to all his targets for immigration are dangerous for the UK.
This man has talked for the last 2+ years as to the EU and settling the issue.
He has let it ride for that time and then would take a further 2+ years to do some re-negotiations,(if we ever hear what they are),or even if he himself even knows what he will re-negotiate anyway.
Then he talks of a referendum sometime by the end of his next 3rd year of govt.

He talks a lot but does nothing in the main and the uncertainty of all that time as to our future in the EU and as to immigration,all that probably brings to the UK is really big confusion and instability in my view.

I am not a leftie by the way,I hate the term.
I was a strong Conservative from a Conservative voting background but whereas you turned to the Conservatives from your experiences of the past.
I have from all I have seen over these last few years,as to the persecution and heartlessness showed to the weakest,poorest and most vulnerable in the UK by this govt;I have turned,heavily too,from the Conservatives.

I do not think anyone vulnerable in the 21st century in a so called decent society should be brought down the way this govt. has done so as to them over the last near 5 years now.
There is nothing at all for those who are vulnerable in the present Conservative party led by David Cameron,a man who is now obsessed almost in following the agenda laid out by UKIP to win votes.

Since this thread is about UKIP really,therein lies another question and answer for me.
Those most vulnerable in the UK have no hope of anything better, or indeed anything at all from UKIP, so despite the smiles and joviality from Nigel Farage,he is someone I would likely trust less than David Cameron and that really isn't saying anything from me as to either of them.

I do love your posts however and respect your views.

I 100% disagree with your last paragraph. the nhs is better under this tory government, despite the disastrous economy labour left. labour are still obsessed with unions , quangos and cover ups. thats exactly what happened to the nhs and the disgraceful events of stafford hospital must NEVER EVER be forgotten. labour would never truly investigate their own unions and expose them. too many votes. so you end up with russian style cover ups. minus the plutonium, but the end results are just as deadly. its interesting to note under new labour as the government jobs/state grew out of control yet again and the waste did too....yet fewer people were sacked and fewer people were employed in investigating mistakes or with the ombudsman which fell apart

the disabled people will have a far better chance under this government. why? because the disabled keep their benefits and have them increased, the lazy workshy fops who scrounge off the state and refuse to work are being weeded out thankfully. there are millions of them , healthy often young people. the economy is miles stronger under the tories which in turn has put an extra million into work and brought the unemployment rate down to its lowest level in 6 years and growth at a record high. yes the figures are always doctored but measured on the same basis as under new labout, the tories have done infinitely better on the economy already.

however.....manufacturing industrial jobs should be top priority....better paid jobs should be a top priority. increasing minimum wage would be a big mistake as it will raise unemployment and inflation. the working tax credits system shouldbe simplified to encourage more to work and it should also be simplified with regards to housing benefits so people dont feel the fear of losing their rented homes

new labour created division, they festered the poltics of envy....they created the fakest shallowest society weve ever seen, with endless petty new laws invading every civil liberty...to such an extent that free speech no longer exists, conversation is bannned...anyone who even questions the prevailing thinking is cast out as a racist a sexist or bigot...whata dreadfully unhealthy state of mind...whilst all this politically correct drivel carried on unabataed by substandard politicians and journalists too scared to dare question it all......... we were preaching endlessly on minute petty political cirrect matters on race and religion..meanwhile we were bombing the hell out of these very same cultures and religions overseas? .a society was created purely about image and spin and buzzwords...as long as you were agood person on paper and no liability fell on your lap then all is fine...

actually being a good person was irrelevant, in fact it became frowned upon as strange, maverick and most such people got marginalized or ostracized, such as tony benn for example...mocked by new labour and their spin doctors as a dinasaur ...dinosaur my ass? he was a genuine and greta man who dared speak from the heart eloquently, decently and intelligently...beneath the expensive waste and gimmicks, vanity projects and illegal wars. I believe the last government was the worst in british history. the rich poor divide became wider than since the days of charles dickens. society became far far more broken up than even under thatcherism and whatever was left was broken up and handed to europe and the fragmented farce of devolution abnd endless more layers of burocracy, waste, civil service.... new labour totally corrupted britain from within

This is completely untrue and I have no idea where you are getting this from tbh. It has been proved 100x over that the work capability assessment are unfit for purpose and are not weeding out the fraud, instead they are punishing genuine disabled people. They were unfit under labour (who I believe, incidentally brought in ATOS to begin with) and the current government made it even harder to pass the ridiculous test. Doctors are against it.

When people die days after being pronounced 'fit for work', when people in constant pain recieve '0 points' and are forced to go on JSA, people with the mental age of children are apparently fine top work...come on. You know this isnt right. There are literally thousands of stories about people who are disabled being told they are not by ATOS.

Disabled people are being royally screwed over. Also, the majority have had benefits decreased, not increased, with the introduction of PIP instead of DLA...

Thanks Joey, and sincerely - the feeling is mutual. I truly respect your political knowledge, admire your passion and integrity, and love reading your posts.

I don't really feel that we're much apart on political thinking, not really considering all elements.

I just feel that it's a tragedy for the UK that we can't just select the best, most proficient, most passionate, most sincere politicians from all parties to form one Government, and take the best, most sensible policies from all parties manifestos to form one.

Well it will come as no surprise to say I disagree with most of that, after all we had terrible times and recessions under the previous 18 years of Conservative govt.
All our asssets were sold off to help cover that a little but the disastrous ERM joining fiasco and chaos that followed that were more signs of incompetence from the then Govt too.

I have to however and I am never likely going to change your mind but I need to say this.
The NHS was on its knees in 1997 at the end of the 18 years of Conservative govt.
I have an Uncle who is a Consultant, another who is a GP and 2 cousins who are Doctors in the NHS.I also have cousins employed as Nursing staff and in other care areas of the NHS.

They all say the NHS is in danger under this govt, they hated the reforms that were done without the public support and the clear thing is that the NHS needs regular and good investement and this gov. has no desire to go anywhere near enough to ensure that takes place.

Stafford was a disgrace, as were the deaths of people on trollies alongside wards under the Conservative govt of 1979 to 1997, where wards were closed to save on heating and not having enough Nurses to man them.
There will always be,to be fair, problems across the NHS in some places.

In something as large as the NHS and nationwide, it would be impossible for any govt. to not have some disasters and problems at times.
However, the NHS is in a lot of trouble again now, only 4+ years from these taking power,they carried out costly reforms no one wanted or voted for and that also were not in their manifesto either.
This has caused massive delays, confusion and disillusionment among NHS staff from Consultants to the nursing staff too.

I also take issue with you as to Labour and the Unions. why is it we get Labour and the Unions argument all the time while really big business and the Conservatives are let off unscathed.
Funding has to come from somewhere, the voters and taxpayers would not want to supply the funding for politicial parties so they need it from somewhere,and I see nothing wrong at all with the Unions supporting Labour, there would have never been a Labour party likely without the trade union movement.
Neither do I see anything wrong,with no other means in place, for big business to support and fund the Conservative party.
However, I don't think Labour is obsessed with the Unions at all, from the grumblings of the Union leaders,it is clear that Ed Miliband is not giving them what they want in any shape or form really at present.

In govt. it is rare to see big business turn against a Conservative PM and govt; that is not the case with Labour however from the late 70s.
It was in fact Unions that helped bring down the Labour govt in 1978/9 becasue that Labour Govt. was not doing what they hoped for in the end.
The Unions got next to nothing from Tony Blair's governments so I do refute your claim as to Labour and the Unions now at this time.

Not that I think all that Unions say and want are wrong either,however if Labour was obsessed as you say with the Unions, then Labour would be going much further as to policy and setting out to re-nationalise the energy industry, the water industry and the rail networks too, just to name 3.

Oddly enough, maybe the Unions are more in touch with a large public opinion because I actually believe were labour to at least be looking at taking back into state ownership the energy companies,that would,I think, have votes flying in to support that policy.

As I say I respect your views but I am not what could or should be termed a leftie,I don't call people righties.
I have moved across the political divide myself to be a now Labour supporter, in the hope of social justice, compassion and sensitivity in dealing with the most vulnerable.
I also believe strongly in a supported and nurtured NHS, I have seen no evidence at all of that from this govt. as to the NHS so that's another reason I crossed the political divide.
Not to be a leftie or a rightie or a centrist,just to see some decency come back to govt. policy and I see little in the way of understanding,caring and compassion on the things and people I have come to care about from this heartless govt.

I would like to see too, the unemployment figures with those on zero hours or 16 hour contracts a week added to it,what are the real unemployment figures for those 'not' in full time work,that don't include the zero hours so called employed and the small 16 hour contracts now in operation,especially in supermarkets.
All govts are clever at making statistics say what they want them to say.

As for the disabled getting increases, that is not so,I agree with Vicky above,who makes the points far stronger and better that I could.

Disabled benefits have increased in part but nothing like what they need to to have kept pace with the cost of living rises we have had under this govt for almost 3 tears in a row.
In fact the disabled are worse off now in real terms, as are in fact those workers in part time or zero hours contract work who are having to rely in part on 'further' benefits to help them just keep going.

The figures of unemployment and the employed are all well and good but the realities are, that those at the lowest end of the scale of things, those sick and disabled and unemployed are greatly worse off now than in 2010,even just after that global recession and banking crisis.

A banking crisis by the way that would have still hit everwhere anyway, especially in the UK no matter what govt. was in power, since the Conservatives actually strongly believed the Banking industry should have been 'less regulated' before that crash came.

That's so very true, all you and Vicky have said Joey and less regulation means less scrutiny into banking practices, no unions mean less workers rights... we are being dragged backwards at an alarming rate.
For as much progress society had made with productivity and industry in the UK it's all gone, there's nothing left but a hand to mouth existance for huge swathes of the country as it was circa 1900s.

I think that is seen by most of the electorate Kizzy, it is just the opposition to the likes of UKIP and the Conservatives are not banding under one party to ensure they are out.
However,I am not that fearful of the 2015 election, the Conservatives have never passed 37% in a general election since 1992,nearly a quarter of a century ago.

They are nowhere near that even now and I also believe that it is down to just over a third of voters who now have that more hardline thinking as to govt. policy.
So for me the Conservatives are never going to likely hit more than 35/6% in the future for possibly even more decades to come.
That will mean for sure, they will never likely get an overall majority,possibly even ever again.

All they have done in this Parliament is alienate most of the other parties.
There will, I think, be the strongest anti Conservative vote in the next house of commons that there has likely been from the other parties, save from UKIP and the DUP.

I think there has for a long time been a collaboration between the tories and UKIP, they are looking to be the next coalition that's why their MPs are interchangable.

you need more regulation and more scrutiny of nhs boards and the hospitals...you also need to seriously strengthen the powers of the ombudsmen and recruit more staff. the regulations themselves need to focus on the patients 100% and not the staff. the patients are what matters most. this message has been lost, hence why thousands have died from neglect at the hands of disgusting sub standard staff at our supposedly great british hospitals. this ALL happened under new labour. they should never ever be trusted again

there have never ever been diasters as big as that under any other government. worse still though labour actively sought to cover it all up. new labour didnt care about the lives lost, the stinking corruption, all they did was cover it up ignore it because they darent upset the nhs or nursing unions....votes and power meant more to them than lives. the uber liberal bbc barely even touched on these disgusting state of british hospitals and these monstrous scandals until years later and thousands more were dead. thousands actually died of thirst in our hopsitals, 25000 a year died from blood clots they picked up in british hospitals that were left undiagnosed, our hospitals were 70 times dirtier than scandinavian hospitals and mrsa was rife. new labour fiddled while the hospitals burned. im more than aware what maggie thatcher did to the uk and destroying manbufacturing. however new labour had ample time to overturn any of her policies and bring back the industrial strength and guess what they did nothing.

in 13 years they did what? destroyed our culture, sold us out to europe, created 1000s of new stupid laws, ruined our civil liberties, destroyed freedom of speech, destroyed families, created an entire generation of 10 million on welfare dependancy (attracting more easy long term voters for new labour) , deregulation of the banks and taking power from the bank of england, world record public and private debts, complete collapse of the housing market, failure to build social housing, illegal wars which saw over 1 million innocents killed, endless vanity projects costing tax payers 100s of millions like the dome, employing crooks in government, in bed with the tabloids , up to their eyeballs in spin bribes and backhanders, spindoctors running the cabinet, increased population of 8 million in less than 20 years due mainly to open door immigration policy with virtually no points system, unlike almost every other western country?....the list goes on and on..........end result....highest drug rates in europe, some of the highest violent crime per head in europe, virtual bankruptcy, teen pregnancies at all time high, enormous debts, 3 recessions, housing collapse etc etc the list of disasters goes on and on.........they achieved NOTHING

that is 100% wrong. the tories are scared to death of ukip fearing they will steal their far right voters. thats partly why ukip formed because cameron is seen as too liberal by the hardliners.

I agree completely,there are plenty of them in all parties and if they had the courage to speak out against the party machinery and say what they feel and the real changes they would love to bring about,what a truly great day that would be for the whole of the UK.

I also believe that many policies should not be aprty political football,things like the EU and immigration, the NHS and Education even too,should be an across the board policy brought about in rational way that all parties endorse and ensure stays in place, no matter what party wins power.

For me, it is the hacking away at the previous govts. policies and the endless reforms and changes,often more often than not unnecessary,that causes the problems and so continuity of policy and conditions never gets the chance to flourish.

If I ever do go into politics,I would spend most of my time, trying to persuade more and more MPs and candidates to help bring about a better politics.
To try in some small way to create a concensus as to politics.
Clearing out hopefully the false, and in fact often unnecessarily created, divisions and work on the things that unite rather than divide.

I have dealt with your NHS issues in a previous post however, I accept and understand and sympathise too that you have had very bad experiences with the NHS and the staff in it too,which you have outlined in posts in the past.
That should not be the case and so I understand your anger when things go wrong and are covered up or not dealt with.

However it is also a fact that for every one thing that goes wrong or is done wrong in the NHS, hundreds of things are done right are are right.

What I have to take you up on is the selling us out to Europe by Labour.
Not so.
The Conservative party,without any referendum, in 1973 took us into the Common Market of Europe.
They then ensured we moved closer and closer into Europe as it evolved especially in the early 80s when Tony Benn was considered a madman for opposing Europe and closer ties with same.

The biggest sell out to the EU was the Maastricht treaty,signed by John Major in the 90s and also had the ERM been a success rather than a massive failure when we went into that under same Conservative govt. then we would have had the Euro now too more than probably.

Despite the warnings from the Conservative opposition,of William Hague in 2001 and Michael Howard in 2005 as to us joining the Euro under Labour.
While Tony Blair would have possibly relished doing so, the then Chancellor Gordon Brown refused to support going into the Euro at all and no way were we then going to under Labour.

So if any party overall and in the main has sold the UK out to the EU and also never ever holding a referendum on any of its decisions as to the EU, well that is the Conservative party, not the Labour party.
Also had Labour won the 1983 election,then we likely would not still be in the EU now,it was the Conservative party that moved with the evolving of the EU right up to it leaving power in 1997.