I didn't watch the programme but do you think it's a connection to god or that they don't want to be ostracized by their families etc?

Do you get a kick out of being so insensitive?

The fundamentalists of those religions discriminate... the extremists... But there are rabbis who will bless your gay marriage, some Christian vicars will even marry gay couples. I rarely meet a contemporary person of faith who believes God made a mistake with gay people. And frankly, if they're going to discriminate against people for being gay then they're not my kind of people.

Just a word about your first para, 2S... No ringletted Frommer is goinging round to anyone's house to kill them or there'd be a whole pile of Corbynites awaiting burial.

There are no atheists in a foxhole, LT.

You can't dismiss faith if you don't know what it is. It's like dissing the English language without being able to speak it.

reality has no feelings

faith is a nasty word for superstition and believing in stuff with no evidence

its not a word i am fond of

and yes there are, id imagine a lot of those who survived the 2 wars realised that there was no God and felt betrayed

Doesn’t kill to show a bit of tact when you’re talking about touchy things like death.

Or do you just prefer being as insensitive as possible to show us all what a hardcore rationalist you are?

I'm sorry that it's not a word you're fond of, LT, but regardless... faith isn't something you understand and that's no reason for me to stop using the word. I wish I could explain it to you or that you could feel it for yourself but you're so rabidly against it you'd never even try to understand.

So I'll continue to read how religious people are deluded and a bit stupid... and feel kind of sorry you're so angry about other people's beliefs.

Did you see the Prince Charles concert thing on TV last night? Rowan Atkinson? Hilarious...

it definatly seemed like a connection to god rather than any form of persecution.

Haven't had a chance to talk to all those progressives but I wonder how far their acceptance goes? Do they still think homosexuality is a sin, but we're all sinners etc. That's the line the pope takes for example. I.e. they'd happily embrace homos etc but still think we're wrong about our sex lives, just politely not say it?
Re. your second para, you know that I had Islamist terrorists in mind, but ta for the mental image ;) Would choking them on matzo (no water allowed) be the method of killing?

Connection to religion rather than god.
I'd say most homosexuals battle internal homophobia. Usually it's "gifted" to them by the hetoronormative world around them, sometimes reinforced by religion.
When coming out sometimes coming out to yourself is the hardest bit. Truly accepting who you are sexually and be ok with it.
So you can be gay and be a homophobe full of self-loathing.

Part of it’s him baiting. As per.

I mean if God could truly fix my Gayness, I'd be at those church doors as soon as possible.

Which "God"?

I don't buy any of that.. You can't blame straight people for a gay persons self loathing..

Gay people seem to have separated themselves from society rather than society shunning them.gay bars, pride marches, flags n banners...

So more and more they isolate themselves, staying amongst their own...society having less and less of an impact on their day to day lives, yet still able to blame anyone but themselves for their unhappiness..

What drives a core rationalist like you to these threads in the first place?

:facepalm:

I'm talking about gay people before coming out who view their gayness as something to overcome bc it is not viewed favourably by society. True it is changing now, but even now it's not everywhere.
Young gay person grows up aware gayness is used as an insult at school, parents may want grandchildren, the list goes on. And so they develop self-loathing of that part of themselves and wish they could be straight not to disappoint the expectations.
You're going on about separation which largely does not exist. Sure there are gay venues etc but that's to do with providing safe spaces where there's no judgement if you want to kiss somebody or hold their hand.
For somebody supposedly interested in fighting for our rights you seem to have very little understanding of basic stuff, Parm.
And btw, coming out and living openly as a gay person has a huge positive impact. Gay people are not unhappy as you seem to be saying. :facepalm:

That doesn't surprise me at all and I was going to post about something in that area.

I was going to post something to this effect. I'm not surprised at all. I think questions about the origins of sexuality, our minds, etc are all questions we all ask. Even outside of a sexuality POV.

Though I think it's a gray area for religion to provide "therapy" services. Even people with actual paperwork/licenses can do real harm. I know someone who a friend is seeing who is telling him things like he and this girl are on the same soul plane or some irrelevant nonsense. She used that to explain the intense attraction, when there were clearly other reasons for his obsessive behavior stemming from a very bad divorce. She is licensed.

I think most non-hetero folk innerly know when the switch is not movable. It's not going to be "cured" because it "just is". I don't think that God discourages questioning. If that person needs to have that "confrontation" with the Lord to get to the next stage of life, then I think let them. Some people feel a huge sense of support and comradery in their religious community... my thought, if we don't feel that way coming away from even simple service, then we're not in the place we need to be. The idea of a gay person going to conversion though out of self-loathing though is a recipe for disaster. So that's where I'm not sure I'm supportive or not of "gay conversion"... I can understand seeking support services while dealing with coming out for instance. That would be a real boon. However, conversion would only seem to attract folk who are coming from a damnation POV... and that does feel like it would send a Salem-esk vibe to the "flock".

I'm in the same frame of mind, Livia. :love: I don't expect other people to understand. And yes, that means also tolerating other people's POVs. We don't have to agree on everything.

You brought unhappiness into the discussion so no winder you use the hang your head smiley:shrug:


Surely its more shame in the family home rather than society itself that makes the majority of people afraid to come out, come out.:shrug:

Yeah I kind of agree with this. There's lots of things many of us are "accosted" for in society relating to stigmas growing up... part of becoming a whole person is rebutting and saying f** society and what it feels.

Though if your childhood was not supportive, it's very difficult to get off the ground. The emphasis shouldn't be on fixing "society" though, because society is not "fixable" and can't be micromanaged in that way... but rather, finding like-minded folk who will support those individuals and help guide them on their path.

I would think the lack of these types of role-models are more the issue. In my experience though, it seems many people prefer a victim-narrative than paving their own way. The problem is when it's most of us claiming dire need in some manner, it's not very good for the social fabric. I read a statistic yesterday, that nearly 40% of kids hitting 21 (or something like that) were born to unwed mothers... I knew it was high, but not quite that high.

I'm sorry Maru, I'm sure it's my fault for being thick, by I still don't know what you're trying to say here re. gays.
Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't changing attitudes in society a sign that it is "fixable"? I.e. that it things change?
Are your musings on victim-narrative connected to gays as a group?
I thought we have fought hard for all changes in law that happened over the last 50 years or so, with the help of our straight alllies. So where's the victimhood?
I might have got it wrong so would appreciate your thoughts.

Did I? It is your thread about god fixing gayness, which implies somebody has to be unhappy about gayness in the first place, right? I didn't bring unhapiness to your thread, your thread is about unhappy gays, full stop.

Ok, then not society but environment, is that better? Environment which include home, school, work, neighbours.

The bottom line is people are born being gay, but they're not born being ashamed/unhappy about being gay. That they acquire from somewhere else. The world around them.

It's down to how you look at it I guess. (I don't think that angle is thick at all, 2S) Society for me is the last point of change that is affected by culture. It's usually hit&miss how laws/mantras/"movements"/etc effect how people interact, so I tend to see it as a passive change, not a direct one. i.e. It's not a "fixed" equation, like we plug in a couple of variables and everyone starts behaving differently, interacting in a healthier way, etc. There is this thought we can place in a middleman (like a school system) inbetween the individual who desires change and society in every instance to create the effect we want. I actually think it's down to exposure: more & more folk running into other kids/people who have come out of the closet earlier and earlier in their life. If those interactions are healthy and not force-fed, then that will tend to lead to progress I think... but if it's not done in a healthy manner, there will backlash. So I think it comes down to homosexual folk to being that first/second/third generation of role-models... not happy go-lucky narratives of "gay people good!1"... for instance, I heard plenty of the pro-Christian/anti-Satanism rhetoric growing up in the US and in Texas schools, but I seldom hear anyone quote a Bible and there's only been an increase in secularity ever since. (Hopefully I explained that well.)

If we wait on society to pick up all the burden, then changes will take way too long*(edit) I think.

Re: Victim-narrative relates to that above, but it's more to do with cultural trends (all peoples), not just LGBT folk. If more and more people are looking towards the external for the solution(s) to their problems, then they're not part of the solution. That will and has caused a deficit in positive role-models over time... for instance, higher suicide rates in males (lack of father figures don't help).

People are unhappy at a lot of things in life, work, money marriage...

I don't know anyone from my family, nor anyone from my synagogue who has the slightest thought that gay people are different and shouldn't be happy. I can't speak for people of all faiths, and not everyone in my own, but the consensus amongst Jews I know is that God doesn't make mistakes.

If you're going to kill a Frommer, best thing to use would be a pork chop.

what is mental is that for Christianity in the past a sure-fire career for a homosexual man was in the ministry

Right but the idea from religious people I've talked to in any depth about this (all Christian, admittedly) is that they generally argue that homosexuality (or at least homosexual acts) are a choice borne of free will, and that as God knowingly gave people free will, it's not God's mistake if someone "chooses" to be actively homosexual - it is their own.

I would add though that none of these people were "hateful" towards gay people or didn't want gay people to find happiness, more of a philosophical acceptance that it "is a sin" but that that's between that person and God and it's not other people's place to judge (as everyone sins to some degree, etc etc).

I've also had a iscussion with one person who was pondering whether maybe people were actually born gay, God might actually have chosen to make them gay, as some sort of Book of Job style "test" i.e. chose for some people to be born with strong homosexual urges to test their ability to resist those urges, as it's only the act - not the desire - that's sinful.

Which is an interesting(?) perspective... I suppose...

The reasons are pretty obvious for that to be fair. The man is attracted to other men and not to women. His religion tells him that he's not allowed to be with a man, but he doesn't WANT to be with a woman... but there is an expectation to be a husband and father and people are going to ask questions. But not if you're a priest - priests aren't supposed to be interested in men OR women - so it was historically a natural "hiding place" for gay men who didn't want people asking why they weren't interested in women. Though of course, repression inevitably leads to "scandal" which is, I believe, a large part of the reason that Protestantism started allowing their "holy men" to have a wife / family, to make it a more "normal" path through life rather than a huge alternative lifestyle decision.

That sounds unbelievably cruel, who would want to follow a god like that?

Also, what is the story with all this "testing of faith"? I never understood why it would be so important to god to want people to blindly believe he exist? Why?

i have been thinking about that the last few days and my thinking is that they joined the clergy to innitially supress those homosexual thoughts...

yes id imagine some did and some thought it a way to avoid persecution. As for the catholic ones , a lot thought it a great way to get access to boys and use the god bolloxio in their abuse

You're getting homosexuality and paedophilia mixed up there LT. That's pretty offensive. Little girls were also abused by these paedophile priests

I don't know, compared to the actual content of the Book of Job it's pretty easy-going :joker:. It's so grim :umm2:

No i am not (although yes it reads like that) I mean a lot of paedos not a lot of gay people targetted catholic priest jobs

Oh ok, that's fair enough. I did think when I was younger that priests became paedophiles because of the weird sexual repressions and thinking kids would keep quiet etc but I've changed my mind about that now and yeah I agree it probably just looked like a Utopian existence to a paedophile

Personally no but I have a friend who was “healed” by God and turned straight

So it is possible then...with some mind control?