It's not a performance-enhancing drug if a person is transitioning.

Ok so here's where I stand on this whole issue.

Firstly, Niamhs concerns are valid and understandable. I'm sympathetic to them myself, and actually believe a trans sports body will need to be formed so that everyone is on a level playing field.

However, trans people aren't going anywhere, a new bathroom category will not be created, and some tolerance is also going to be needed to ease integration.

There is no data to suggest that trans women are more likely to use access to historically trad spaces in order to commit sexual attacks. Women are still way more in danger from men they already have relationships with than anyone in a bathroom, and trans women are 4x more likely to be the victims of sexual violence or abuse.

These are the vulnerable people that folks insist should be using "male" bathrooms, because a trans woman in a mens bathroom would face absolutely no danger. And that's my whole issue really, that everything is looked at from the perspective of the status quo.

It should also be completely visible to anyone with a brain cell, that the folks women currently think are their allies in this area are anything but. The same tactics were used against gay people as they became more visible, with women being co-opted to protest about harm to the family, in order to provide cover for the biggots shouting fags and *****.

There are really complicated issues at play that go well beyond sports and bathrooms, so I'd personally question the motives of anyone that uses descriptors such as "bloke" and only wants to talk bathrooms and sports. Again, gay people in the dressing rooms/arses against the walls, lads, was even a thing when I was a kid, and probably still is today. It's exactly the same prejudice involved with ant-trans movements.

Preach!

The same ‘think of the children!!’ arguments were used to discourage the gay rights movement as it’s now being used against trans people, because anything other than straight and cis is apparently naturally dangerous to vulnerable people and their lifestyles, it’s nauseating and that’s why so many of the LGBT community are so against what’s happening, not because they hate women, but because it’s a very clear repeat of what has already happened to gays in the past

It's not even genuine transpeople that are the issue here Slim. I don't think transpeople are more predatory or more violent, the concerns are around creating loopholes for men who like to cheat or are predators easier access to do just that and it removes women and girls rights and ability to even challenge a man who's exploiting these loopholes, just look at the Wii Spa incident for evidence of that and how the women complaining were treated and it was tried to be played off in the media as a fake story which was untrue. Women's sex based safe spaces are there for a reason, why should we have to give up our safe guards to other people, why are our rights and our safety less important?

Transmen are literally enchancing their performance by taking the "transition" hormones. It doesn't matter whether or not they think they're men, taking "transition" hormones gives them an unfair advantage against other women, and should be regarded the same way as taking other boosters.

The main focus of the current debates (that's having people branded supposed TERFs) is on self gender ID which would allow anyone to declare their own gender at any time. There is no data that shows genuine trans women are an increased risk to women. There is, horribly enough, ABUNDANT data that men are a risk to women, and that predatory men will be willing to use self-ID legislation to gain access to vulnerable women. As I've said before, I wish I still lived in a bubble where I didn't know this to be the case, but I don't. The things men will do, and have done, to gain access to victims is utterly mind-boggling.

Why people are determined to deflect away from this, I don't know. I can only assume its agenda based. I keep seeing people insisting blue in the face that Trans Rights Activists are not pursuing this legislative change. They 100% absolutely are and it wouldn't take long to look that up? So I can only assume that people simply don't want to know, or don't want to lose face by having to admit that it poses a massive risk to women's safety.

Ffs it poses a massive risk to actual transwomen's safety but no one cares! Self-ID and gender non-binary ideology trumps all other concerns. There are plenty of trans women and men who are vo ally critical of self-ID and the dogma of current gender ideology. They're branded, dismissed, ridiculed and insulted along with the "TERFs" for Doing Trans All Wrong.

Men are dangerous to vulnerable women. Full stop. Do you not believe that, or do you genuinely just not care? Is it considered acceptable collateral?

The ugly truth is yes we are considered acceptable collateral, you can't argue for removing our safe guards unless you think that

I do think that cis women need to be heard and understood though. No one really likes change, and especially when it comes at the cost of our own perceived safety, so looking from the outside in, I think some of the absolutism for trans acceptance does need to be lowered a notch or 2 at the same time, because this is a completely new issue and if everything is black or white, it will only lead to things getting worse.

There will definitely be horrendous incidents that flair up from the new reality, and at that point, statistics about how much more dangerous someones husband/da/brother is, isn't really going to cut it, and will only lead to a more extremist anti-trans movement that will be far more dangerous than anything currently imaginable.

No, predators are dangerous to vulnerable women, it’s got nothing to do with their gender, being a man, doesn’t make someone dangerous, a predator can be a man or a woman

I genuinely understand where you're coming from. I believe unisex changing spaces in swimming pools are the highest location for sexual assaults in the whole "changing rooms and toilets" debate, in some data collection that was done a couple of years ago, so I understand the foundation your fears are coming from.

Your rights are not any less important, but we currently have a societal minority underclass with fewer rights, and so I think bringing these people actually in to society is just as important.

No one thinks because you call yourself a woman, that you're either mentally ill, an attention seeker, or a sexual predator; and yet that is the way some of the most vulnerable people in society are viewed.

:facepalm:

I mean... You can either agree or disagree with him, but using a facepalm emoji rather than an explanation, when above is the majority of your thread contribution, is a little weird.

No it's symbolic of the post and is highly effective

As your reply highlighted

By using 'think of the children' as some perceived hysterical reaction you are playing to the narrative that the opinions of women on this topic are not valid.
Not sure why you are trying to align this with the gay rights movement decades ago ..I f you didn't know there was legistation against the teaching of, and limited information around st that time following decriminalisation. Do you really think that all women today are so shallow, vacuous and misinformed haven't bothered to look into this objectively?

I can see predudice here, and it's not from the women in the thread.

That’s a whole lot of reaching you’ve done there, but sure, if that’s what you want to think, knock yourself out

And your silly comment that the women of today are the same as women at the time of the gay rights movement wasn't? ... :/

I'm not without sympathy for transpeople but the fact of the matter is I don't just call myself a woman, I am a woman in the biological sense and its in that sense where the need for these sex segregated areas, sports etc is.

I'm not happy with being assigned a label. I'm not 'a person with a cervix' or a 'cis' I am a woman. I'm very proud to be a woman and I object totally to anyone foisting their made up terms on me.

I... literally didn’t say that at all though, but what I did say, which is that the principle of the two arguments are based off of the same idea, I’ll 100% stand by

99% are men and they aren't particularly rare. You're living in a comfortable, naive fantasy.

Define 'vulnerable women'.

You inferred the thought processes are the same then. You can back track all you like but it's obvious what you meant.

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2022/03...7249641752.jpg

Are the little ladies now been told we don’t know what we are standing up against...what next

https://youtu.be/IOf6ursZ0FA



Funny.

She's made it abundantly clear that she isn't...

You can tell how uncomfortable she is about the entire line of debate and that's most likely not because it makes her angry that this is a question, it's not because she can't formulate an answer or a discussion point at least about it... it's because she's absolutely terrified that no matter how good her intentions are, she might "say the wrong thing" ... and that is absolutely huge. A serious, serious problem.

Indeed it is TS. Indeed it is.

hence you end up with men winning in womens sports

its like the emperors new clothes

I get people not understanding that there's such a big difference in physicality between biological males and females... asking for it to be considered and studied and looked into as a possibility... even trying to find further ways to genuinely make it a level playing field somehow if it's something they believe in. Each to their own on all of that, honestly, if it was possible then ... sure why not. If in 100 years (if we're not radioactive dust obvz) they develop nanites that can completely rebuild a human body and people want to switch genders and play sports, then :shrug: yes go for it.

What I don't understand and find utterly baffling is people actually seeing with their own eyes, individuals who are twice the size of every other competetor lifting twice the weight anyone else in the contest can over their head... outswimming the next fastest by a full length of a pool... causing serious injuries in combat and contact sports... and STILL say "this is fine there isn't a problem here".

But they do. They'll watch a 6'2, 250lb trans woman win an olympic gold, turn around and look you square in the eye, and say "no that person did not have an unfair advantage".

But they must know it isn't true. They simply MUST. Logically, it's undeniable. It's like having someone look you in the face and say "Hello there - I am either lying or stupid and I'm fine with everyone knowing that."

It's because they think transwomen are women. Pesky things like reality and physiological differences between the two sexes aren't as important as feelings...

Vulnerable Adult Human Female :D

There is no way if someone was writing out homophobic slurs, that you would reply with the same sincerity you're treating the purposefully offensive slurs against the trans community. I don't disagree with what you've written here, by the way.

If folks were using arse bandit/dykes there would instantly be a price to pay, but call trans women blokes, and the they are treated as though they re making a well throughout response.

It's the completely uneven playing field that makes these debates so toxic imo.

It isn't the same thing though Slim, "bloke" isn't a slur like the ones you've mentioned. transwomen are biologically men and transmen are biologically women, that is reality not a slur. I understand the want to be polite and respectful and to not want to hurt peoples feelings by pointing this out but it's gotten to a point where it needs to be pointed out when you've got people like Lia Thomas taking the absolute piss out of the actual female swimmers in their competitions. When you have men claiming to be transwomen in order to serve their sentences in female prisons, when you have flashers walking in to female only spa areas flashing their male genitals at women and little girls etc

There have been times when all of the slurs we now understand to be slurs, were not considered slurs.

If you're a transwoman, then it will absolutely be considered and more importantly, it will feel like a slur. Calling trans women blokes (as an example) is used only to belittle and minimise.

This is where sports and bathrooms become the dominant issue again. I agree with your points, but a few examples aren't representative for the experiences of the trans community. It just isn't. Like I said in my previous posts in this thread, there will be absolutely horrendous incidents that spring up from this new reality, and they will be indefensible even by the strongest trans advocates, in the same way that gay people can do horrendous things or us heteros can murder our families etc. It doesn't suddenly make every hetero husband a family annihilator.

There is a reason that this debate narrowly focusses on very limited issues, and that is because they have the widest appeal to generally good and right-minded people.

Yes GBnewsHD
has used this
showing how Crazy the Labour Party is.

This has a slightly complex and I have to admit pretty murky answer to be honest. The first part of it is that ... it's TiBB so yes I probably overlook pointed comments that I wouldn't elsewhere.

The second is that I think the sports issue is incredibly shaky. There's money in it. There are lucrative scholarships in it. There are opportunities to attend top universities in the US that simply would not be available by any other means than through a sports promgramme. I'm aware that there are genuine trans people who, rightly or wrongly, just want to still be able to compete in a sport (with my stance being that it's not possible due to the biological advantage). However - because it's money, fame, success, opportunity - I am staight up 100% positive that a proportion of those purporting to be trans in order to succeed in a sport they were only middling at as a male, are not women by any definition, they're abusing the system and making a mockery of genuine trans people for personal gain. I don't even consider this a suspicion - I consider it to be an outright certainty.

And I think the people who say "lol no one would do that" don't understand the stakes involved/how far people will go for glory and recognition/human nature in general.

The same goes for the issue of women's prisons and "no one would pretend to be trans to get into a different jail". Yes they would. Either with nefarious intent or to avoid male prison. They just... ... would. There are already examples.

The thing with not being allowed call transwomen men and considering that a slur means that you can never question a persons motive for saying they're trans, you have rapists being referred to as women which is wildly inappropriate and you end up with sex based statistics being skewed and meaningless

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...omplained.html

I'm sorry Slim but I can't agree that women and girls should give up safe guards that are already in law and were hard fought for a "new reality" and just accept that we women and girls are the acceptable collateral damage of this.

The debate focuses on the issues that will negatively effect women and girls because those are the issues we're concerned about.

As a side note, I do appreciate someone on the other "side" actually engaging in a proper debate about this, maybe if the whole thing started out this way we wouldn't be in the hostile positions we are in now towards each other (not you and I but in general)

That's fair. I don't expect everyone to see everything in exactly the same way. I know you're coming from a genuine and good place, we just both think that the other has it a little wrong. Nothing terrible about that.

I do think there are a couple of discrepancies in the labelling of trans women (in particular) that we see on here as an example. The kind of person I'm referring to, isn't worried about having a discussion about the way to move forward and create a environment that both alleviates the fears of folks like you or Kizzy, and also of trans women. I can show that pretty definitively imo simply by pointing out that they're not even interested in using trans women as a descriptor, it's straight to the minimisation of men/blokes. That's how you know, and that's why I worry about having bigots as allies for women from both sides. From your perspective it should be clear that you're being used, and from my perspective, if bigots and women are teaming up, then it lays the ground for complete radicalisation against a minority group.

Ultimately, as humans with rights they deserve to be integrated into society without prejudice, so my only concern is how we go about that.

I appreciate your last paragraph too. From my own perspective, it's such a complex issue, that I've had to work out exactly where I stood on the matter before I could even begin to explain that to others, so I've always avoided these threads.

Again, completely fair. There are folks (and I'm sure some of us know their kind IRL), that if any opportunity to benefit arises in whatever situation, they'll take it. Whether it's money/sex or anything else, so i don't doubt that these people exist. I'm not sure they exist to the degree it is assumed they might, but only time will tell.

My only point, was the ease and acceptance with which we treat anti-trans bigotry, versus all other kinds. I don't mean that you're the bigot here, either, let me just make that clear. It's pretty obvious you're coming from a place of discussion.

Re the bolded section :
It's an interesting point of view, I see how you could have come to that conclusion and I won't deny that there are absolutely people on my "side" who are speaking about this with different motivations, equally I could say to you that a lot of the people speaking out on this issue on your side (not even actual trans people themselves) are guiding and pushing things in a certain way because they are misogynists and want to silence and put women in their place, they want excuses to be able to threaten and insult women and still be seen as the good guys, I could say they're taking advantage of people's good nature and desire for inclusivity by comparing it to an issue with a bad past like the gay rights movement even though they're really completely different things and in actual fact contradict what the gay rights movement was actually for ie Same sex Attraction, it's now same "gender" attraction