Jamie - please read back through the thread and the long posts which I have posted on here.

They are factual and truthful and should convince anyone who is undecided that a 'Brexit' is the only possible result.

This isn't about Kirk Lancaster, or Joey Steele - it's about the most important decision this country will ever have to face in modern times, and I have invested the time and trouble to plead the case for a Brexit because ALL the genuine evidence of the past 42 years right up to the present proves that economically, politically, and security-wise, leaving the EU is the only sensible decision.

The 'In' camp do not present any type of case - apart from scare-mongering and making uncorroborated statements which are not corroborated because there are no genuine facts with which to corroborate such statements.

This country's hundreds of billions of pounds net payment deficit with the EU is what is propping the ailing EU up and it will collapse under the weight of its own failings once we exit, but if the upcoming decision is to remain - something Cameron and his elite friends both corporate and private, so desperately desire for their own financial ends - then the EU will drag this country down with it.

Please read my posts, follow any links, and do your own research, because you are a very intelligent man and the results of this vital referendum should not be decided by anyone other than those who have tried to inform themselves of the facts - no matter which way they eventually vote.

Kirk
This is why we need Live TV debates with proper panels

I totally agree Arista. The sooner the better, but it must be presided over by a tough. impartial adjudicator who will nail the empty rhetoric, spin, and scare-mongering lies, and insist on facts only.

That is not true.
There are many links to relevant reputable articles and sources as well as intelligent personal perspective from those who would remain.

Excuse me, where do I come into this, I don't expect anything on this thread to be about me, you asked a question at the start of the thread and I like others have answered it.

I have never said a word to Jamie on the issue, I merely post my opinion, not using negatives as to out and admitting there are also issues within the EU.

Why should what you say be more relevant than those with a differing view to yours,I respect all peoples views even if I think them wrong, right, agreeing with me or not.

However what I will say in response since for no reason whatsoever you chose to include my name in your response to the poster.Instead of posting or at least as well as,the endless stastistics, only negative to the EU from you, perhaps you would actually get round to detailing in full with full costings what I and others have been asking the out camp,on and off here, the trading deals we would get, can get, who with, how much the likely tarriffs will be, what conditions will, not might, be placed on the UK as to those deals.
How our actual security would be better separating from Nations rather than staying together.

List the implications and how we would overcome them, we know problems will arise at times economically,how guaranteed and easier would be solve those out of the EU rather than in.

I am not saying we couldn't,I am saying I am not sure we could and I so I certainly don't have the confidence that the UK would do better out of the EU in the long run.
Those are the questions that need to be fully detailed, assured and answered with full costings too from the out camp.

I have not said to anyone on here, I think, who is undecided,that my way is right totally and that there would not be problems to overcome in the EU as well as out.
However I can point to the fact we 'have' already many times while in the EU come through difficult periods while not on our own

Now I read Jamie's post and accepted he has to make his own mind up,so if you want to hammer your statistics at him do so but do not use my name please.
As I would never want to pressure anyone,all I am doing is presenting my view as I see the EU, its bad points and good ones.

If anyone even finds anything I say remotely interesting that is a compliment but unless I was asked a direct question I would not presume to pressure or present myself as the all knowing book on the EU.

I find it annoying actually that you say this is not about you or JoeySteele, it is certainly not about me, I keep asking questions just as the undecided do.
So please, with respect for all, do not include me in your posts especially in the context you did above in your reply to the almost undecided poster.

I never mention you in my posts unless I respond to you directly.
I 100% do not agree with your analysis or presentation of the EU as you do so in your posts,only negative, no positives.
I see the attraction of trying again on our own after over 40 years but for me to ever vote for that, I would need to see the full 'new' costs and conditions that would be applied to us,across the board guaranteed, to vote for such a massive change.
Repeating myself again,
I have seen and heard nothing as to those guarantees from the out camp whatsoever.

Just repeating anti EU rhetoric gets nowhere at alland gives a false impression that all is bad as to the EU and not scrap of good about it.
Which ends up being totally misleading in my opinion.

You were right to say,this is not about JoeySteele however because I would never want it to be anything about me.
I post my views full stop.
My posts are there for anyone to read if they wish to,I am not going to direct them to any part of them.

With respect, you only made this thread Kirk, it is not your possession and on any issue like this both sides should be fairly presented, costed and the conditions of both ways known and detailed very clearly.
Just leave my name out of your responses to others however please, that is a little disrespectful to say the least to include mine the way you chose to in the post above.
So speak for yourself, not for me and don't try to infer this issue has anything to do with me, any more than it does as to anyone else who chooses to post in this thread.

I find the undecided and their views more interesting,it is a really big issue and a massive change to vote for if they vote out and sever over 40 years of closer ties to mainland Europe.
The decision is massive but whatever decisions any undecided come to I would respect and other than stating my own views and feelings, would never try to push anyone one way or the other either.
So you should not have put my name in your post above.
This is not a battle between you and I, there is in fact little point in me discussing this with you since all I say to you is wrong anyway,just as I will never accept your one sided totally negative presentation of the EU on a public forum.
So there will never be any agreement really between you and I on the issue as we are poles apart on it.

I have only responded this time again to you, because you used my name and wrongly in my view, in your response to another.
I do not like that at all.

My footnote to you is I as an IN person have pointed out the problems that can come from staying in too,I point to the fact, yes fact,that we have overcome many problems while in the EU,the UK has been successful and still is now in the EU.
So I can point clearly to a future not without difficulties and changes needed but to the fact, we would overcome problems when they arise and at times needing EU assistance too to do so.

You always choose to dismiss that but the last 40+ years speak for themselves in my view.
What no one is getting told, something you choose to ignore too, is the fact that no one in the out camp will not and probably cannot anyway, detail all the new costs, charges, tariffs,conditions and also difficulties we would have having to not only re-negotiate some trading deal with the EU again, accepting most of the conditions there are on us now already even in the new deals.

Also however just what deals will we certainly get with the other Nations and would they be that willing to really accommodate s cheaply when a good number of them want to have deals with the EU themselves anyway.
India for instance, the biggest Commonwealth Nation,would prefer the UK to say in the EU.
Canada has been battling to get its own deal with EU for years now.

How long would we take to get the 'right' deal and clearly what would that deal really be, what conditions imposed, what tariffs imposed.
Or are you trying to tell us there would be no charges, tariffs and conditions guaranteed.
When those questions are answered with solid assurances, as opposed to the solid assurances already in place for us now in the EU,then that would be a fairer portrayal of the issue..
In my opinion, nothing at all about it being about me, just my opinion like everyone elses views on here.

As to scaremongering that goes on as to all sides. The fact remains however we are in the EU, we have done pretty well out of it and there are benefits on both sides,not all is right with the EU,it likely never will be.
Then again all was not right before we joined anything as to Europe and we were desperate to do so too.

I would never throw away over 40 years of hard work unless I knew for certain that guarantees, cost and conditions were knows as to any alternative beforehand.
I would also be looking at what the UK govt could do now as to helping certain sections of business and groups of people while in the EU and yet they decide not to.
There would be no guarantees that would change or get better if we left.

There are good and bad scenarios as to in or out.
The difference is we know the bad and how to overcome it while being in the EU and working together so for me the benefits do still outweigh any drawbacks that there are still are admittedly.
However walking into a scenario of ifs, maybes, possibles and don't know yets,does nothing whatsoever to fill me with any confidence.
Yes there are possible good things in leaving, yes too equally there are possible bad things too,non really known or prepared for even..

Whereas for me as to in, there are certain bad things to come and certain good things to come from being a member,the bad things will be worked through as they have been for over 20 years or more now.

That, speaking for myself,no one else,gives me confidence for the better future for the UK being in because I know all that will happen.
Rather than taking on board biased negativity against the EU that lists not a thing that is positive as to it and takes us down a path virtually blindfold as to costs,tariffs and future conditions..
No scaremongering just balanced facts.

Thanks Kirk, I'm planning to have a read through it at some point (30 pages though D: lol). I'll admit a certain amount of ignorance when it comes to the EU (hence me staying away from this thread!) I've always felt that we should remain a part of it but it's more of an instinctive thing rather than it being because I know all of the information, and I worry a bit about us being seen as segregating ourselves, or trying to shut 'foreigners' out etc. Obviously I realise that's not the point, it's more that that's how I think a lot of people view it (that's how I've sometimes interpreted it anyway) like whenever the issue is discussed there tends to be some rhetoric about how an 'out' vote is aligning yourself with Farage, and each to their own in terms of political views and everything, but I'm really not a fan of Farage :laugh: so my gut feeling has been that an 'in' vote is right for me. Like I say though, my friend was pretty convincing as to how leaving the EU would benefit him and his business (and other businesses), and I do think that's something that's really important, hence me now considering an 'out' vote, but yeah, I need to know more about it before making a decision.

I don't understand why there hasn't been, I would have found it really helpful and I'm sure I'm not the only one!

WOW - I meant nothing more than this issue - even on here - is much larger than any personality on here, ME for the OUT camp and YOU for the in camp by way of example, we two being , as I thought, the most regular posters of more comprehensive posts. There was nothing disrespectful about it at all.

I will respond to you later in full as I have only just come in from work.

With the fullest respect, there is no need to respond again.

Over the majority of the post I was repeating myself as you called it the other day, so you have dismissed all that before there is no need to do so again.

I said what I had to say as to my dismay and annoyance at you saying this is not about you or me JoeySteele.
Absolutely no need for a further response,just leave my name out of your posting please in future .
Thank you very much in anticipation.

As you wish, but I feel you are more than a little overreacting.

No problem, I will not debate or discuss with you again - nor quote you.

Yeah! get lost pob!
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a6930561.html

Gove should be sacked if he leaked that information about the queen, there is no doubt about it. He would have shown he is untrustworthy and not fit to have a place in the cabinet

I bet the queen said nothing of the sort either, someones been telling some very tall tales.... orf with his head!

I read yesterday that Gove had declined to deny he was the/a source as to this.
What on earth does that mean.
Declined to deny so in fact refused to deny.

I agree 100% with all you say in your post above.

This lot really do think they're untouchable don't they? :/

I was Amazed on a report on
Ch4HD News Neil "Wind Bag " Kinnock went to Wales with
a Reporter to find They want out
More wanted out,

I wish Spitting Image was back.

Everyone has a story to tell
More and More want Out Kirk.


Great to see Ch4HD News giving
Balanced News better than the Bloated BBC

Sure he could be
but that means the Queen must tell All
which can not happen.

Hell of a Puzzle


Feel The Force

"I don't understand why there hasn't been, I would have found it really helpful and I'm sure I'm not the only one! "

Jamie89
they will be Long TV Debates with a wide ranging panel
and as Kirk said it must have "impartial adjudicator"
On BBC1 Question Time - its not good enough
thats everything not the, EU alone.


So as one example
Jon Snow - Ch4HDNews would be ideal.

Well how about posting some of those links and actually putting something on here other than empty rhetoric? I look forward to discussing how reputable and relevant they actually are.

True Arista, I am finding daily that more and more want out. Thank God that this Tibb thread where a few can influence a poll, is not reflective of the real world. :laugh:

I agree about the BBC as well - it badly needs an overhaul.

I've had an opinion, if you want to denigrate that as rhetoric on a debate thread then that's fine.
As well as post links to areas which concern me such as workers rights, if you don't accept them as relevant then that's your issue.

I made a post which was not directed to you at all, to which you freely elected to respond contending that a particular statement in my post was not true:

Quote: Originally Posted by Kizzy View Post

"That is not true. There are many links to relevant reputable articles and sources as well as intelligent personal perspective from those who would remain."


To which, I then responded:

"Well how about posting some of those links and actually putting something on here other than empty rhetoric? I look forward to discussing how reputable and relevant they actually are."

Considering this is - supposedly - a debate forum, what is so wrong with that?

Of course, if there are no "links to relevant reputable articles and sources as well as intelligent personal perspective from those who would remain." that you deem able to withstand analysis and intelligent rebuttal, then just say so, because there is no need for such a thinly veiled aggressive and confrontational response.

To me, sweeping statements without substantiation ARE but empty rhetoric, but then, that is what 99% of the 'In' campaign consists of out there in the real world.

No problem love that yet another 'In' campaigner on here does not want to discuss or debate this all important issue.

If I were to post them I would be repeating myself, something you have criticised others for doing. If you wish to see my views then you'll have to look back across the thread.
'that is what 99% of the 'In' campaign consists of'
This in itself is a sweeping statement. There is no point attempting to debate anything with you to be frank. I'll just continue to post my views of how I see things in the lead up to the referendum.
I'm not attempting to influence or inspire anyone to think as I do, I'm simply posting my own personal take on the issue, therefore I won't be attempting to convince anyone of anything in any way.
If you wish to analyse my opinion you go ahead.

I will debate any issue but not to have my opinions and posts abused.

Few are actually debating on here in reality because it is near impossible to do so, you cannot debate with someone who only presents the bad side of the EU,or someone who only presents the good side of the EU,that applies on here as well as talking to those we meet everyday too.

I will happily debate with any 'out' representative, when and if they in fact ever do, actually ever get down to listing the terms, costs, tariffs,time and also all conditions that will be the new norm as to the UK setting up trade deals not only with the EU but also other Countries too just for starters.

That would be before debating security and the UK presently in the EU helping decide the best course of action as to events around the rest of the World with our EU partners and then after leaving, probably still having to support Europe's overall actions to same while having no say whatsoever in the projection of such.

How if we were totally sidelined could we hold on to the status we have as a Nation now, and for exactly what.
What do we gain,are the out people guaranteeing us that the European Nations left in the EU will be there to, or even want to really do the UK any favours.
If they can guarantee that say so with substantiation.

Quite frankly not a single out person has given me any confidence as to all those things.
All I get is how much it costs and the only way to control immigration is to leave too.
Then you get all the 'only' negative statistics thrown around only trying to show the bad side of the EU, while totally ignoring the fact, we have been a major asset to the EU and that it has been an asset to us too over the last decades.
Despite al the reforms and changes still needed to make it work far better, something better done from inside it, as for sure I can say, we will have EU conditions imposed on us which we could do little about to be able to still deal with them and also those conditions can be altered any time too.
However out, we cannot influence any such conditions if we still have to and want to trade with the EU nations.

When if ever, the out camp ever come up with guarantees on those issues, then a serious debate may get going in a balanced way.
Rather than nit picking at each others posting and attempting to ridicule people with a differing view too.

The 'in' argument is made and clear to see, the EU has not stopped, and in fact I believe it has helped the UK, remain a success despite many problems, recessions and global crisis over the decades.
That will continue, even though the UK will at times be at odds with the EU and things be got wrong.
Overall however, it has given stability over most issues and if we were to stay in, that would always likely be the 'assured' case in my view.

For the in people, we know that and can point to decades of success overall and a good strong UK while being a member of the EU despite the current costs.

Now all the out camp will do is dismiss what I have said as nonsense and we would be better out but they never, never ever, detail the costs, tariffs and conditions we would then have imposed once out.
So never show that we would be at the very least the same as to success and status or better.

When all someone does is dismiss what is clear as to 'in', then will not in anyway give assured costings etc. as to being out too,then that makes real serious and meaningful debate impossible with such people.

Give me the costs and conditions and tariffs as to out, then I may look at out again.
Nowhere can I find anything assured as to those things,leaving then the massive difference that I know now, the costs and no tariffs, and also the conditions we have in place now as a member of the EU.
I see with what we have in place already, up and running, how successful the UK has been and is still in fact.

I will talk to any from the 'out' camp when they can present and substantiate the costs of 'out', as we already know the cost of 'in' as I detailed above.
It is for the 'out' camp to make the case for out fully substantiated and costed.
Those facts are already there as to being in for all to see.

I have said many times,I would look at out if I saw that the UK would be assuredly better with substantiated true information as to that.
I only think it could be better out, as well as also thinking it may not be too.
Again all could be's, ifs and maybes,nothing in any way assured or certain.
With the lack of substantiated and costed plans that at present is a no go for me at all.

As to in, because I know we have been, and still are as full members,I know the UK will hold its status, its success and I also know the substantiated costs as members of the EU too,if it stays in.
I know it can also be better in the long run because as members of the EU it is in the overall interests of the EU to have its members doing well when they can.

Once out,no going back, why would the EU have to, need to or want to be concerned at problems the UK may have in the future once we left.
Why lift a finger then to assist us,when they have 27 other EU Nations in place and more wanting to join too,so those other EU nations could well benefit from any problems the UK may end up in as we slip further down.

It is not debating at all to fire anti EU rhetoric and statistics all the time and never even acknowledging any of the many benefits of being a member too.

As I am,as I am doing off here too, however I as soon as I come across off here, anyone solidly out, there are 3 in my whole family,I refuse to get involved .
If I find anyone who wants to talk to me about the benefits as I see them and bad things as to the EU too and also as to being out in the same way.
Then I will discuss at length all night with them, even moreso if they are undecided.

Still stating I know the EU is far from perfect and that things are wrong and will go wrong while in it.

I feel really sad for the real undecided, they are getting nothing of a really balanced nature as to any form of debating from either side.

So like you, I put my own views on here and the only other thing I ask for and never get,is the costings tariffs and conditions we will have imposed on us to trade with the EU once we leave, that is before we start to try to open up trade with all other different Countries too,even if we can.

No-one has yet mentioned the climate aspects of opening up trade with further afield countries than the nasty, evil europe which is rather conveniently on our doorstep