lets all just get on, if someone wants to wear a headscarf, let them! if someone wants to wear a miniskirt! let them...love and peace

Don't mind the Hijab, just the Burka. And nothing is as simple as 'just getting on'

bishop nazir ali is a deeply troubled man...

I think a distinction needs to be made between christian values and how those values are enacted and practised by professed christians in everyday life. The same could be said about most faiths where a certain way of life is proscribed in the scriptures and teachings, but followers simply pay lip service to the values and do their own thing.

However this country IS predominantly Christian and it is christian values and compassion that have allowed so many immigrants of different cultures and faiths to settle here, sometimes to the detriment of the indigenous population who feel their own culture is compromised.

I speak as a christian who has lived for many years in the Middle East, where I had the courtesy to respect the Islamic faith and to accept laws and traditions with which I disagreed. Furthermore Middle Eastern countries do not accept criticism or dissension from foreigners living on their soil - no such thing as freedom of speech there. And quite rightly since,after all, nobody dragged me there against my will and I was free to leave at any time. I did not expect, nor did I get, any compromises for my cutural differences and perferences, and no allowances were made for my inability to speak the native language properly. No expensive translators laid on by the governments there I can assure you.

The greatest myth of this century is that multiculturalism is a good thing when it is quite obvious it is not working. Diametrically opposed cultural values can only cause civil unrest,resentment and violence amongst different ethnic groups, and I am not talking about the indigenous population, but intra-ethnic prejudice. Throwing together peoples from a multitude of different cultures does not create a multicultural society. It simply creates a society in which a multitude of cultures lead separate lives! The only way for a society to live in complete harmony is to share common goals, aspirations, beliefs and values. How on earth is this possible with so many different cultures jostling for limited resources and with different agendas? Some serious rethinking needs to be done as to how best to assimilate all cultures into society whilst at the same time respecting the indigenous population's wishes to retain as paramount its christian heritage and traditions.

So before slagging off this country that has thrown its borders open to the world, remember it is BECAUSE we have christian values that we have done so, and at least we are trying to live up to those values.

I think I was probably on about the more hardcore values, such as the nuclear family, views on homosexuality the many Christians differ on today. I agree about the myth of Multiculturalism and clearly it does not work, but letting it happen was probably more the goverment than the church. And it's not all cultures and religions that have problems adapting. Catholics, Hindus, Jews, Sikhs ect have flourished over here, fitting in and contributing to society. And i'm talking about the immigrant Catholics, not the English ones.
The Church is at a major decline anyway, with attendances and all that, plus with the introduction of women vicars, many clergy are leaving and the younger generations are simply not interested. Also the new wave of American fundamentalist that has swept over here. But you are almost making it sound as if the Church actually has a say in what goes on in the UK today, it really doesn't, it is confused about it's own vaules and Christians are torn between all sorts of things. It could be easy to say that is has all happened because people stopped going to church or lost their 'Christian values' but that would be assuming that there was a golden age of religion, where almost everyone went to church, which is simply not true, obviously the numbers have increased but only because we've started recording them.
So the church does not and never will speak for the UK, the reason we have multiculturalism is not because of good christian values, it is because of the goverment, and the economy in the 40's 50's and 60's. Since then there has been a steady increase and we are left where we are today, a pretty much godless nation, faced with problems we never thought would arise.

Good read! Completely agree! Unfortunately many people attempt to abuse that hospitality and Christian faith! They don't want to live alongside other faiths, and show mutual respect - they want their own faith to be given prominence - they want control. You cannot integrate people like that!

we are a predominately secular population and it is our educated values and HUMAN compassion (not to mention market forces) that has allowed us to accept different cultures....and WE do on the whole ALL share common HUMAN values, goals and aspirations....not really much to do with being christian at all...most religions share the same kinds of morals and values anyway

The Church for me is merely the symbol of organised religion, whereas Christianity is a way of life. I live by christian values, the main one being
"Do unto others as you would be done by". That basically encompasses what christianity stands for in my view.

You are correct that mass immigration has been a result of political manipulation and ideology which has resulted in a fractured society in which cultures are living independently of each other and far from integrating are drifting further apart. How on earth was it ever considered possible for cultures that subjugate women and condemn homosexuality could co-exist happily with a culture that promotes women's rights and sexual equality? Furthermore the necessity to learn the English language in order to facilitate integration, and promote better understanding has been completely overlooked, and the provision of interpreters and translators has only resulted in immigrants excluding themselves from the ability to blend in with the indigenous population.

Again you are correct that over the centuries many cultures have successfully integrated into society, but this has been because they have been willing to embrace their host culture and assimilate it with their own. The recent influx of immigrants seem unwilling to do so and indeed are perceived (rightly or wrongly) to demand favoured treatment, which only causes resentment not only amongst the indigenous population but also amongst other more historically established immigrants.

Failure to think through the consequences of an open door policy have led us to the brink of anarchy in this country. I don't think it's too far fetched to state that multiculturism has resulted in most people in this country living in a constant state of fear and suspicion since no common ground has been established between the different communities.

As a christian (not a church goer) I treat people with respect and consideration, and would hope that they will reciprocate in the same way. Sadly this has not always been my experience.

Ahhh yes, well the golden rule applies in most religions really. It has to be said alot don't seem to follow it though. Also yeah, I agree alot of different cultures have been willing to embrace because they are alot like our own, their values anyway.
We as a society have either been too lenient or lazy, probably a bit of both and we have not really seen it coming or expected it to happen. Britian has been seen as an easy way of life, people say they do the jobs 'Britons don't want to do' when in acutal fact it's because they are willing to work more hours for a lot less pay. Also I agree with what you said about learning English, it should be a must, but some barely speak and neither do the kids, which make it alot harder for schools.
I really think as a society we have become far too PC, too scared to speak our mind, taught to respect cultures without question and no matter what they do. Which of course is ridiculous, also the media creating folk devils and moral panics which divert us from the real issues. Maybe i'm so blunt because I live in the City, i've seen it all happening first hand, i've been to many cities where it is happening. It's hard to know who's fault it is really, everyone blames everyone, I really don't know what it going to become of Britian, but at the moment it's looking pretty bleak.

Bang On Right
InOne.

"Maybe i'm so blunt because I live in the City,"

No a Breath of Common Sense
we have Mrs.Netto going on with her Pointed Finger.
So we need Balance.


France is setting a better way
with some give and take.


Life In The City.

Indeed so, people say our opinion is misinformed or uneducated, yet they're upper middle class people who live in quaint little villages. Those overactive students annoy me as well, they give the wrong people the right press.

I would agree with you to the extent that human compassion is not exclusive to christianity, but the point I was making was that this country has historically always been predominantly christian and it is undeniable that the Church and State have always had a strained relationship. Whilst other cultures do of course share common HUMAN values, the political and social expressions of those values do not always translate into tolerance of other cultures and faiths, and in fact often try to surpress any alternative views or criticisms. Some immigrants from those more oppressive cultures often bring with them those intolerant attitudes which do not sit well with the host society. To deny that there are cultural tensions and dissidence in society is dangerous and blinkered and so far has prohibited positive government intervention to promote integration rather than segregation.

evidence that this is widespread and the norm amongst "other" cultures and faiths?...Christianity (or the followers of) has historically been pretty damn intolerant too!

We are not talking about historically - we are talking now!

I have lived for many years in countries with oppressive governments and regimes so I think I am competent to speak from experience regarding the attitudes ingrained in the cultures of such countries, particularly towards women, and visitors from the West. Western values and practices are seldom tolerated in any way, shape or form. Few, if any, concessions are made towards those of other cultures and beliefs. As a westerner in such circumstances, I did the prudent and courteous thing living in someone else's country and did my best to integrate which included learning the language and embracing their culture.

All I'm saying is that it is commonsense for migrants to any country, not just the UK, to try and assimilate themselves into the culture of their chosen land, which does not mean abandoning their own beliefs and culture, but finding a way to coexist with the indigenous population, as well as migrants from other countries.

1.We shouldnt and never will be as intolerant as some other countries, and the oppression of people in other countries has feck all to do with the religion itself...religious interpretation and the power it holds is another thing. ALL religions have different interpretations held by different groups.

2. Most people from different ethnic backgrounds and cultures in this country dont have a problem with "our" values and secular democracy (infact the majority having been born here they are part of the "we" and "our") and fit in just fine whatever their religion or lack of it...if there are those that disagree with what they see as different values to the rest of us, then I would rather they had the right to disagree than to be opressed and punised for thinking differently (unless they are hurting others in the process). This isnt a country where only christians get a say in whats right and wrong, plenty of different races and cultures are born into the UK, times are changing, this is a globalized world and white ethnocentric people and christians will just have to get used to that fact and educate themselves to the realities and stop the fear mongering that goes on about other cultures. The struggle for womens rights, equal rights for all, compassion for others and tolerance etc are universal accross all cultures. Ditto intolerance

3. There is no idigenous genetically and culturally distinct population of Britain we have always been changing and assimilating with other cultures, cuts both ways.

Definition of religious intolerance:

•Spreading misinformation about a group's beliefs or practices even though the inaccuracy of that information could have been easily checked and corrected;
•Spreading hatred about an entire group; e.g. stating or implying that all members of a group are evil, behave immorally, commit criminal acts, etc.;
•Ridiculing and belittling an entire faith group for their sincerely held beliefs and practices;
•Attempting to force religious beliefs and practices on others against their will;
•Restricting human rights of members of an identifiable religious group;
•Devaluing other faiths as worthless or evil.
•Inhibiting the freedom of a person to change their religion.


Seems like a lot of religious intolerance towards muslims coming from a minority also, as bad as any intolerance from the minority of muslims that preach the same...seems like we have intolerance from a minority on both sides...most people in the middle (from all cultures) can see it for what it is

Oh there are plenty of Christians who are intolerant today...Westborough Baptist church, sarah "ignorant and intolerant" Palin and the growing number of evangelical christians in american politics influencing or attempting to influence policies...(and thats got little to with the religion itself its the interpretation)


The role of US evangelists in Uganda's 'kill the gays' bill http://www.nationaltimes.com.au/opin...0111-m2lf.html


Cannot believe your comment in the other thread either "most sex/violent cimes are committed by black/asian/muslim men...erm yeh if your Daily Mail reader you might have that impression but if you actually look at the statistics in depth you'll see your talking absolute bollocks!!...do you still maintain your not racist after that comment?

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/...Daily--001.jpg

Netto nothing wrong with the Daily Mail
infact it is now made for you as well.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010...-targets-women

Lol, it will never be made for me until they stop pandering to bigots

She is not racist.
Wombai is just seriously concerned about this country.

blaming ethnic minorities for everything is ridiculous

I agree.
The blame lies squarely with the government that has allowed, even encouraged, immigration on an unprecedented scale, but have not put in place adequate measures or funding to ensure that there are sufficient resources to cope with the numbers - where are the all the additional houses, doctors, dentists, schools, jobs etc for the burgeoning population? The competition for the limited resources available is what causes the tensions and resentments within society. If there were enough of everything to go around a lot of the frictions that exist between communities would disappear.

Yes and Stinking New Labour will be Kicked Out.

Sick to death of you and a few others making such constant allegations - some of you accuse others of being politically correct about certain issues - but are actually being so yourself over race. Facts are facts - drawing attention to said facts does not make someone racist. I dare say many are reluctant to say it because of fear of being called racist, and I understand that, but I will not bow down to that. It is ridiculous.
Below are a couple of paragraphs from an article in the telegraph for which I have included the web address - read before you just blindly and hysterically call me a racist:

"The truth is, violent white-on-black crime is a rarity in Britain, by comparison – although white-on-Asian crime is rather less so. The overwhelming bulk of violent street crime in London is committed by young black men, and in numerous cases against white people, although one would not impute a racial motive; the statistics suggest that young black male criminals are quite happy to stab or shoot anybody who hoves into view with either a bulging wallet, a mobile phone or an assumed reflection of disrespec’ in their eyes.

Apologies if this offends – but that’s how it is. At most, the African Caribbean population of London is about 12% of the whole. But black males are responsible for nearly 60% of arrests for robbery – and the overwhelming majority of gun crime, most of it black-on-black violence."

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/ed...t_knife_crime/

http://www.parliament.the-stationery.../181/18105.htm