:clap1:

nonsense its people over using the homophobic and racist card thats caused this massive problem in the first place

nobody said that, that kind of false exaggeration and misrepresentation of what people are saying is immoral untrue and deliberately divisive

the european parliament is the main problem, their unreadable 587 page constitution of endless laws is the next problem, masisve population growth is another problem partly caused by open borders, illegal immigration is another part of this farce with an estimated few million illegals in the UK too.......the system cant handle all this
in addition to the appalling european farce, we had the worst uk government ever under new labour, who passed so many stupid hardline radical liberal laws , conversation itself is virtually outlawed now in this so called land of free speech. the mental bills and welfare and general PC culture with new labour led to the break up of families and masisve welfare state dependancy and teen prgnancies hit new highs. we now have a generation with millions of young people with no work ethic instille dinto them. this has meant they wont do physically demanding jobs, or any tough jobs in many cases. theyre ambition , self rspect and work ethic destroyed by the bentness and disingenuous nature of new labours disgusting lust for power. complete and utter champagne socialist charalatans who preached about petty drivel like what words can be used to describe immigrants and called anyone with questions bigots...yet on the other side of the world they bomed the hell out these same immigrants nations.....little words were more important to new labour that big bombs and illegal wars killing millions. new labour were pure evil

I do agree that people do overplay the race and homophobic cards quite easily, but in UKIP's case there is truth to it, have you seen the people surrounding Farage? In fact that should tell you what Farage must be like behind close doors because he must have a lot of things in common with them.

And I will try and find the article tomorrow, but one of their twatty MP's did say something along those lines of wanting people hanged for believing in the EU.

New Labour was awful to the Middle East that I can agree on.

But as selfish as this sounds I care about myself and this country first and foremost and these right wing parties are out to destroy the working class and disabled people, at least we had treats and benefited under New Labour which is more important than how they treat a few countries right? I know that sounds cruel but it's survival of the fittest at the end of the day.

They just can't stop can they?... Were you a bigoted conservative who has a backward middle English outlook? then UKIP want you! :/

'The UK Independence Party says it has expelled one of its councillors "for bringing the party into disrepute".

Rozanne Duncan is understood to have used highly racially offensive language during filming for a BBC documentary to be broadcast in February.

The party did not give the reasons for Ms Duncan's expulsion but said she had 28 days to appeal.

She sits on Thanet District Council in Kent, where she was UKIP group deputy leader.

Ms Duncan won the council seat, in the Cliftonville East ward, in a by-election in May 2013.

She had previously stood as a Conservative candidate.'

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-30576857

I think it shows a party who acts quick to combat prejudice. I wish the other parties acted in this responsible manner. Well dome UKIP, again. :clap2:

This is a really interesting post Mock.

I agree with the basis on the thinking of near all of it.
I agree labour made very big mistakes as to the Middle East, but there were other mistakes in that area too, which were also created by the former President Bush and our Conservative govt. led by Margaret Thatcher and then John Major at that time too.
had they gone about things better and more productively, they could have ensured a possible unlikelihood as to a return to Iraq.

As to your point as to the destruction of the working class and disabled people, sadly under this present govt, that all has a ring of truth to it.

As you pointed out,although the word treats is not what I would use, Labour did realise more needed to be done for those at the poorer end and those most vulnerable.
Pension credit was a massive boost to those aged 60 and over as a top up to income and pensions, the winter fuel allowance awarded at £200+ to help with fuel bills for those on very low incomes too was very welcome.
The increasing too for the vulnerable of cold weather payments,increased from the miserly £8+ whatever it was under the Conservatives up to £25 for every 7 day freezing or below freezing period.
I can support the thinking that some of those benefits, winter fuel allowance and cold weather payments could now be halted for those with much larger incomes and more to the point substantial savings too.

Contrast those actions with this hateful heartless govt. taking away entitlements from those on housing benefit with the bedroom 'tax'.with no other properties for them to go to, and them then having to pay the loss of the housing benefit out of benefits, which all govts. had previously separately said they had to have to live on.

There was touted about,the term 'social cleansing' as to this govts. policies,not justified in my view at tha start of this govt.as to the severity of the term and what it could really mean, however this govt. has over the years gone on to attack and hit the weakest, poorest, most vulnerable working or unemployed,disabled and sick, even the incurably and terminally ill people too.

Which either demonstrates clearly the real thinking of this truly nasty govt. or a very cowardly govt. that can only take action and crush even more the weakest in society

Good points you raised Mock,and for me the rise of UKIP has only made the Conservative party come across even worse as they seem to try to match UKIP.
Then therein lies another very sinister question and thought,if the Conservatives are by their policies trying to outdo UKIP now, then clearly UKIPs policies for the groups who are in the most need and most vulnerable must be absolutely horrific for those most vulnerable and at the lower end of the earnings scale as to their future.

A thought I hope many will hold onto in the polling booths in May 2015 and take action to ensure this rotten govt, and more to the point the sinister and worrying UKIP party with its probable 'hidden agenda', are all soundly rejected at that election and sent packing.

It's not great that the majority of the parties representatives share these views though is it? You could almost get the feeling that the party attracts these views due to their policies (policy) which is mainly xenophobia dressed as 'adult' debate.
They are the most right wing you can get without falling over, and are only just managing to maintain a veil of respectability...just.

I do think and hope even moreso that the UKIP mask is slipping now and as more scrutiny is applied to them, more of these 'views' become apparant.
Which in turn also exposes what some of those in the Conservative party would like to see done too, hence 2 defections to and former Conservative voters backing UKIP.

The mask too, of blaming everything, no matter what it may be, on being in the EU and on immigration is now going from the sublime to the ridiculous.

:clap1:

hardly joey, lets not kid ourself about "scrutiny" etc - editors have told journos that UKIP stories are golddust and "go get them"

they are the flavour of the month and people want to use these stories to pigeon hole UKIP like people are doing in this thread

Lets ignore the fact that Farage speaks more sense than all 3 main leaders do and has been a welcome breath of fresh air to a failing political system - and just be vile about some fringe candidates etc.


It makes me think that people have forgotten about the antics of labour and the tories over the last decade?

unbelievable

Cameron and Millipede should be heaping congratulations on Farage for rescuing the reputation of the "Politician" from the toilet bowl where it was prior to his arrival.

And people try to sit here and say the party isn't a racist organisation :worry:

what happened in the middle east does affect us, terrorism has grown out of all kinds of control since our illegal incursions...the fact we preach about PC words yet bomb millions illegally makes us look like the complete and utter charlatans of the world. then again we brits have always been condescending preachy hypocritical monarchy kissing twats
also you say you care about the disabled yet say its survival of the fittest? major contradiction in your values there. new labour were pure evil. theyll sell anything for a cheap vote and to hell with the long term. as for the disabled theyre not worse off now than before, its a lie. theyve simply taken off idiots and the millions of workless chavs off the benefits that new labour spoon fed. new labour actively encouraged lazy twats to milk benefits and now we reap the benefits of a workless generation

With full respect to you The TRUTH, that may well be the case where you happen to be but from all I have come across in my dealings with the disabled on a legal basis since graduation, it is far from what I see.

The disabled are having to battle in courts to get benefits restored that were wrongly removed from them, there was a case where someone was on income support, were told they would have to now claim ESA, they did, they were told in their view, on a paper decision, they were fit for work and would need to claim Jobseekers, they tried but were told they were too ill to claim Jobseekers yet were told they were too fit to claim ESA.
It got settled after months of having hardly any income.

Charities, the CAB and welfare groups will happily tell you that the disabled and sick are far worse off now than they were 4 years ago due to the benefits changes.

Add to that,those who need the old DLA, now PIP. when they claim, many have had 6 to 9 months wait before even getting a decision.

The disabled and sick have been caused massive, unjust and unnecessary stress and worry as to the benefit changes.
Furthermore, it is pointed out in all analysis and on all programmes dealing with benefit issues, that only 0.8% of claimants are believed to be claiming wrongly or cheating the system.
That leaves 99.2% doing it right and claiming their just entitlements.

It is the demonisation and scapegoating of those on benefits as to being scroungers and fraudsters that is the real big lie from this rotten heartless govt.
The facts of the matter are that all those involved in the support of those disabled and sick,regularly say the disabled and sick are suffering now, losing out bigtime due to this govts. benefits changes.
Reforms which are saving very little,often if anything at all but which are costing near the earth to do.

I have to keep this carefully said but we got it sorted,not actually me myself but the law firm I am with,one case which was that someone on chemotherapy was told by the so called 'health assessors' as to ESA, that because they only got Chemotherapy every 10 days, that left days they could actually do some work.
They were really ill after chemotherapy, far weaker than they usually are but that just demonstrates what is going on all over the place.

I am glad people where you are, from what you say above, are not having that horrific nightmare to deal with but over probably most of the rest of the Country,I am afraid you would find the opposite of what you describe is more likely the real happenings of what is going on.
Sorry to disagree with you as often I think you make fair points but I know from all I have seen across the UK as to the sick and disabled, that more than are not, have been and still are, far worse off than before.
Only because of this govts. benefit reforms, nothing else.

It is why I have dedicated the greater part of my time since graduating in law to do all I can to help and advise these people, how to deal with and fight this rotten heartless govt. as to going through the courts to do so if necessary, to get their rightful benefits, that should never have been tampered with anyway, fully restored to them.

:clap1:

A brilliant post Joey.

Also to The Truth, how am I contradicting myself that looking after the UK should be more of a priority for the UK Government than how they treat other countries? Of course our Government shouldn't alienate every country, but it's more important to have your people on side (including the disabled) and looked after so they don't hate your guts and you can't win Elections which is what keeps happening to these right wing parties because they behave like Dinosaurs, they're disgusting Human Beings that deserve all the abuse that they get.

the person with chemptherapy is an horrific story and yet another example of idiot politicians, heartless civil servants and the nightmare of big government ...........ive not read many specifics of such horror stories and would be interested to learn more, pls post links and i promise to read them all.....as for the vast majority of disabled people have you interviewed a cross section of disabled people and other people who have lost their benefits?

This government is a tory libs alliance nothing to do with ukip
secondly theyve targeted the workless millions who are able to work and do NOT have disabilities. theyve assessed millions and the vast majority of genuine cases people kept their benefits. in some cases theyve actually increased. however government always makes mistakes and theyve clearly made many. and in these cases these mistakes can be a matetr of life and death for thousands...however there is also an appeals procedure though hos taxing that is on the disabled is another question, I hope and pray the most vulnerable arent being exploited here.....

the moral issue here is disabled benefits are for the disabled not the workless demotivated people whose parents have patently failed to instill into them a work ethic and an ambition to better their lives. a line has to be drawn here , it is a moral line and career politicians have ducked moral issues for years...they tend to go with the crowd as do civil servants and even social workers simply to further their careers and keep their heads down.mavericks tend to be shooting stars who make and impact and get quietly moved aside

clearly this corrupting of the welfare state is partly as a result of broken homes and the entitlement culture. the lax drugs laws or rather the lax implementation of them has seen drug use and drug related crime go through the roof, this is also relevant to the cultural collapse in our society....the crime per head ratios in the UK are staggeringly higher than the US. under new labour the truth was buried under a super sized state. big government is one of the scariest things on mother earth. it measures what is spent, it measures what it achieves to promote itself, but it never measures the true damage done socially and economically through its wasteful ill conceived unaccountable spending.

why dont politicians speak of council waste, small government waste all over the UK? why are roads endless dug up by the gas board, then weeks later, the electricity board, then weeks later, the sewerage, weeks later, the water, then the tarmackers fill in the pot holes weeks later...then the gas board are back again? why dont these departments ever merge and simply try and unite and dig the roads up the same time whenever possible? does anyone ever measure how many billions this hurts our economy? the waste is endless and it hurts every other part of society


this goes for the utterly disastrous european constitution and the euro itself too............the US constitution is 15 pages, the EU one is 587 pages and no one has ever read it in full. chucking in 30 odd ancient nations with a mass of different cultures , climates, economies, wealth, natural resources, laws , etc etc all into one massive pile with one size fits all currency and laws for all, is insane enmasse.....if you want an analogy consider the EU is titanic, the iceberg is only 5 minutes away, but it will take the EU about 5 years to decide what to do and how to do it.....the ship has too many captains, no real leadership. no dorection, it has to go to a committee vote and some nations have the veto, some want to jump ship but dont have fishing or swimming rights etc etc guess what happens next.........its too big too burocratic too wasteful too unaccountable....frankly its horrifying

Joey raises excellent points as always and I would ask the UKIP supporters where they are on welfare and workers rights, the onus is on immigration so much what else do they propose will improve England?

Agree with this. Especially the last part.

where are you on those topics? 8 million in 15 years, how do you propose we cope with another 8 million

Exactly.... They seemed to have forgotten that they work for us the voting public, at least Farage seems to have remembered that.




.

Yes they do, therefore you would have thought that the UKIP candidates wouldn't do so much to alienate huge swathes of the electorate.....

Your quite hysterical opening gambit sets the style of this discussion but I will not reciprocate and will, instead, remain cool, rational, and factual - as always;

I would rather be accused of ‘hyperbole’ than actually be guilty of not only ‘making molehills out of mountains’, but also of being in a state of denial that the mountains even exist in the first place as you, and others on here sadly are.

I cannot answer your response in one post because its length would be prohibitive, so I will deal with each one separately, but before I do, I would like to state certain facts;

When it comes to formulating opinion – on any subject - we are all reliant on the same factors; intuition, inherent prejudices, and preferences shaped from our environment whilst growing up, direct personal knowledge gleaned through our own life experiences, and indirect knowledge learnt from reading, watching and listening.

There is nothing else. None of us are privy to the absolute truth.

Yet there is a vast difference between a biased opinion which is blinkered by political zealousness, and one that is detached from any political affiliation and which is purely objective as a result.

I’m afraid that you, and others like you belong to the first category, whilst I - for the following reasons - irrefutably belong to the latter.

'Inherent prejudices, and preferences shaped from our environment whilst growing up':

I was born and raised in poverty. My father – like his father and grandfather – was a coal miner and a life-long Labour supporter, so I grew up steeped in left wing politics, and was an active and avid Labour voter since before I was old enough to vote.

As I grew older and went into business and became moderately successful, my political stance did not change. I went on various marches, picket lines, and even wrote articles for certain Left-Wing publications.

During the 1984 – 85 ‘Miners Strike’, I owned a small ‘mini market’ in a suburb, and every week for almost a year, I allowed the wives of striking miners to fill boxes with provisions from my shelves for their strike fund in addition to personally donating as much cash as I could afford.

I stayed loyal to Labour until I became totally disenchanted with ‘New Labour’ under Tony Blair, after which, my votes wavered between Green, to no voting at all, then Tory.

'Direct personal knowledge gleaned through our own life experiences':
A sure-fire recipe for disaster in business is when a ‘Capitalist’ head is ruled by a ‘Socialist’ heart, and it takes a very special business person to successfully correlate the two. Unfortunately, I am not one.

I have been self employed for many years and some years ago directly employed 11 Polish ‘Tradesmen’ through a firm called 'Baltic Recruitment', paying considerable fees in the process.

I don’t care a fig if you believe me or not, but it transpired that of the 11 - 4 had faked their qualification documents and references, and were not tradesmen, 6 were thieves who were regularly stealing my stock on a grand scale and selling it, and 9 out the 11 were devious bastards who took on jobs on the side, using my vehicles and my tools, my equipment, and materials, and carried such jobs out during working hours when they should have been doing my work which I was paying them for.

As none of this came to light in a matter of days, it nearly ruined me financially, and they acted as they did despite the fact that I had provided good quality housing for them (not the shared squats they had all been living in under other employers) and spent thousands of pounds kitting them out with leisure clothing, work clothing and other personal effects, and treat them like 'friends' in every respect.

I have also been a landlord for many years and about 9 or 10 years ago – in line with ‘Market Forces’ – my properties had been let increasingly to immigrants.

With one exception – a Lithuanian family - these lets have been unmitigated disasters and also ended up virtually bankrupting me.

I personally let one 4 bedroom, fully refurbished property in Doncaster, to a Polish couple with 2 small children at a ‘Below Market’ value rent because I had a degree of sympathy for them because he worked but was on a low wage. After just 2 months of receiving the rent, it stopped, and they ended up owing me thousands of pounds over a year.

To cut a long story short, when I did eventually regain possession of my property, I discovered that they had been illegally sub-letting ‘shared’ rooms in the house to 13 other Poles at £50.00 per week each – yes that’s nearly £32,000 per year, yet they did not even pay their £4,800 per year rent to me. In addition, I had to pay for a locksmith to gain entry as they had illegally changed the locks and the property was virtually a wreck which cost me well over £12,000 to remedy before I could re-let the property.

I also had the same problem with some other properties, and as I was to learn, this problem of 'immigrant' tenants sub-letting properties was a nationwide problem.

Another modernised detached in Kent which was let to another Polish working ‘family’ had £28,000 of damage done to it as result of it being used as a ‘Farm’ to grow Cannabis.

Ditto a 3 bed terrace in Sheffield let to Latvians and £8,000 worth of damage.

Ditto a 3 bed flat in Birmingham let to Albanians with £15,000 of damage and hundreds in unpaid rent.

Ditto a 3 bed Detached in Nottingham let to Poles with £20,000 of damage and thousands in unpaid rent.

Need I list more?

Many other landlords have suffered the same experiences - they are very, very common.

In addition, and as previously stated on other threads, my business (and ensuing leisure) activities, have brought me into regular direct personal contact with Asians and ‘Foreign born’ Eastern Europeans over a number of years, and involved travelling abroad as well as travel within the UK, and as a result, let’s just say, that I have not only become familiar with their attitudes and their morals, but also covertly become ‘aware’ of certain of their practices.

'Indirect knowledge learnt from reading, watching and listening':

Though it should be remembered that all 'official' immigration statistics are 'manipulated' downwards for 'damage limitation' purposes, here are a few facts gleaned by the above - 'pick 'n mix' them as you want;

"90 per cent of all immigrants to the UK head to England."

"Since the UK opened its borders to Romanian and Bulgarian immigrants, it has become themost densely populated country in the EU, and the most overcrowded major country in Europe".

"Population growth is so rapid that four times as many people are crammed into just England as France and nearly twice as many as Germany.

Number of people living per square kilometre in 2015 - by country
• England - 419
• Holland - 408
• Wales - 258
• Germany - 226
• Italy - 205
• N. Ireland - 130
• Poland - 123
• Portugal - 116
• France - 105
• Romania - 89
• Bulgaria - 66
• Scotland – 40

" By 2046, an astonishing 494 people will be living in each square kilometre (in England), compared to 115 for France, 204 for Germany, and 120 for Poland – where an estimated one million of the arrivals under Labour ‘s ‘Open Door Policy’ originated from."

(This figure is ridiculously understated - there are millions more Polish living in in the UK , as those indigenous British whose communities they live in full well know.)

"Net migration nearly quadrupled from 48,000 in 1997 to 185,000 in 2003. Once the East Europeans had been granted free movement in 2004 it peaked at 320,000 in the year ending June 2005."

('Peaked' at 320,000 in June 2005 - almost 10 years ago - what is the real figure now?)

"The latest ONS provisional estimates of Long Term International Migration (LTIM) show that net migration stood at 260,000 in the year ending June 2014. This is up from 182,000 in the year ending June 2013. This was a statistically significant increase."

(Significant increase? Even allowing for the fact that all .’official’ figures are ‘massaged’ downwards for ‘damage limitation’ purposes, this figure is a joke – more than 260,000 immigrants flooded into just Yorkshire, Lancashire, and Lincolnshire last year, never mind the rest of the country.)

"The UK population is projected to grow by over 9 million (9.4m) in just 25 years’ time, increasing from 64 million in 2013 to 73 million by 2039. Of this increase, about two thirds is projected to be due to future migrants and their children - the equivalent of the current populations of Birmingham, Leeds, Sheffield, Bradford, Manchester, Edinburgh, Liverpool, Bristol, Cardiff, Newcastle, Belfast and Aberdeen".

(Again, these figures are understated.)

"Government figures show 3.8million people came to Britain from abroad between 1997 and 2010 - more than the 3.7million who came during the previous 50 years."

(More immigrants flooded into Britain in three years than the total for the previous 50 years! Think about that. )

"The breakdown comes from an analysis of the ten-yearly census carried out in March 2011. The figures have already revealed that at the time there were almost half a million more people living in the country than previously suspected".

"More than half of those arrived over the ten years since 2001, according to analysis of the 2011 census."

(These figures do not take into account the 4 years since that 2011 Census, nor the fact that no census is comprehensive because tens of thousands of residents do not participate in such information giving. Then there are the million or so illegal immigrants who certainly do not.)

"Britain’s total illegal population is by its nature very difficult to measure but a report by the London School of Economics in 2009 gave an upper estimate of 863,000."

(In 2009 a figure of 863,000 was low, but taking into account the influx from Easter Europe in the 6 years since, it is not now even the tip of the iceberg.)

"UK's Roma population is much higher than previously thought. New research estimates that there are 200,000 Roma living in the UK, despite government claims that "relatively few" had settled in the country."

(Again, a very low estimate.)

"In 2013 over half a million migrants arrived in Britain, more than the total population of Bradford."

"Net migration into the UK increased by more than 38% to 243,000 in 2013-14, government statisticians have said. The ONS said the increase in overall net migration was "statistically significant", meaning it is "very likely to reflect real changes in migration patterns".

"The number of migrants from Romania and Bulgaria increased from 12,000 to 28,000 over the period. Employment restrictions on citizens of the two countries were lifted in January"

(A 38% increase is certainly "statistically significant", so how much more "statistically significant" would the real, much higher figures be?)

"EU citizens - including an increased number from Romania and Bulgaria - accounted for two-thirds of the growth from the previous figure of 175,000.
Separate figures showed over 25% of births in England and Wales last year were to mothers themselves born abroad."

"There was also a rise in the proportion of people in the UK who were born overseas."

"According to the migration figures from the Office for National Statistics, a total of 560,000 immigrants arrived in the UK over the 12-month period to March - An increasing number came to the UK to join family members."

"For the first time in nearly three years, the number of people migrating to the UK from outside the EU increased, to 265,000. All the figures are for the 12-month period up to March."

(So on top of astronomical numbers of immigrants from within the EU, we are also witnessing huge increases in non-EU immigration into the UK.)

"Every year for the past 20, more people have been arriving in the UK than leaving. The reasons for those movements are complex and have regularly changed."

"As the British economy grows faster than other parts of Europe, workers will continue to arrive - and the net migration target moves further and further out of reach."

(This is highly significant; because it means that we suffer an increasing influx of ‘worker’ immigrants during a booming economy, or suffer an increasing influx of ‘shirker’ immigrants if our economy is faltering. Either way we are dammed.)
.................................................. .................

So; far from being ‘Hyperbole’, my post is closer to the truth than the deliberately ‘doctored’ low figures on immigration from official and pro-left sources - as the overwhelming documentary statistical evidence proves – if one approaches such evidence with a completely open mind, and one is willing to also ‘read between the lines’ of official statistics and statements.

I have lived longer than you, so have greater life experience. I have been poor, comparatively wealthy, then poor again. I have been both employed and an employer. I have a great wealth of direct experience with immigrants – both on a personal and business level – and an insight into their attitudes, affiliations and morality. I have no rigid political stance – preferring to vote because of specific elements in given manifestos rather than blind support for any party irrespective of its policies or lack of them, or because of any irrational detestation of other parties due to ill-founded preconceptions about their ideologies.

The above being true, my views on unfettered immigration and its catastrophic effects on this country, are not shaped by racism or fascism, but borne of patriotism for this great democratic country and a genuine love of its indigenous people – a people who are not only endangered but doomed if the minority left wing extremists have their way and immigration continues unfettered.

And ‘minority’ in this democratic country is what such ‘left wing extremists’ are – as the excerpt below attests:

“The public have, for many years now, expressed their concern about levels of immigration and the impact that this had on housing, public services, and the labour market. 94% of Britons think that Britain is ‘full up’ and 79% of people in England think that England is ‘overcrowded’. While the public are sufficiently nuanced to welcome highly skilled workers and students to our best universities, they are aware of the impacts of high levels of immigration on public services with 76% believing that immigration has placed too much pressure on health, transport and education and 69% believing that immigration has had a negative impact on the availability of housing. We must build a new home every seven minutes for new migrants for the next 20 years or so.”

The above being so, the ‘left wing extremist’ view on immigration is just one more example of an ‘active’ vociferous minority trying to impose their will upon the passive majority – a la the hackers with the Sony ‘The Interview’ incident, and every terrorist organisation in human history.

Just as with the above examples, God help the UK if the ‘left wing extremists’ succeed in stifling the views of the majority and in intimidating politicians and the media into not addressing immigration, or telling the truth about it, for fear of being labelled 'racist' by hysterical loonies or sinister organisations with covert agendas.