:laugh: If that's your diagnosis, then based upon the logic of most of your posts T.S (not ALL of them, as some ARE intelligent and valid) then I am most certainly pleased with myself.

I'm just saying kirk, that even the good points that you do have come with so much of this sort of "hulk smash" method that they get buried in the rubble.

In an emotionally detached, do-my-best-to-perch-on-fence discussion I actually can appreciate that there are problems with immigration, that there is a good argument for bunkering down in the UK and keeping me and mine safe and happy for as long as possible. That the current situation in Germany is frankly insane. I see people posting their "all welcome" signs on facebook and think, "no questions asked? Isn't that a little naive?". I've seen points made that I can get on board with but they're stated so abrasively that it's impossible to get to the core of them... Like I've said before, you sometimes come across as wild to the point of being unhinged, and that makes the WHOLE argument questionable. "I find the increase in Islam in the UK concerning, and I worry about where Jeremy Corbyn's policies and associations might lead" vs "ARGH MUSLIMS WITH BOMBS AND THEY BOUGHT THE INGREDIENTS FROM A CORNER STORE RUN BY CORBYN THE CLOSET ARAB!!"... To exaggerate again.

I'm not preaching - I can admit that I have a tendency to hyperbolise too - though more from a place of melancholy... But I am fully aware that that's not a great way to make a point either.

Something to consider, I suppose.

Let me clarify what I said; "I don't read right wing newspapers". This doesn't mean I don't read Conservative material or watch the news channels. I rarely read left wing newspapers either because although they are polar opposites; they all have their agenda. The skill is to extract the balanced story and I'm not going to get that from a newspaper that holds a bias.

So the only paper I ever physically buy is the Independent and that's because in my opinion, its the only paper who doesn't tell me how to think.

Lets remember that up until fairly recently there was a very real risk of being killed by a terrorist, especially in central London. During the IRA's indiscriminate bombings campaign our security levels went up enormously, not just by our government but by every individual who had to ride a bus or a tube to work.

I was with my dad crossing the Southwark Bridge in 96 when the Docklands bomb went off. I fully understand how fear feels.

I'm sorry that you took the time to collect all that evidence. The IRA campaign is over and what comes after that is a very short list of Islamic extremists. I could equally give you lengthy and more recent lists of spouse murders, gang attacks, massive child abuse incidents, random murders and rape.

My partner was shot in a drive-past outside a nightclub in Brixton back in 2010 but it barely made the news.

My sister was stabbed 17 times by her ex and she got a brief mention in her local evening post. Both these attacks were by English people who were angry and wanted revenge.

My point is, there is nothing more unpredictable than an angry human. Its our very intuition that warns us other humans can be dangerous and for that very reason we don't walk through deserted underpasses late at night.

Nothing wrong with being vigilant but if we were spend all our time believing our lives are in danger then what miserable lives we would lead.

The IRA used coded warnings as an alert to any device, therefore that threat was relatively overt.
Security services already have access to information whenever they deem it necessary as part of RIPA and also the Civil Contingencies Act.
So again why would they have to have the records of everyone when all they have to do is apply for the information, is it because they don't want to apply and would prefer to simply indiscriminately 'snoop'?

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/surveill...nter-terrorism

Again - If the Government WANTED to 'snoop' on any of us then they would not need to secure public approval to do so.

I don't know what - if any - personal information is stored on 'secret Government data bases' but I personally could not give a shet. When it comes to someone knowing which porn site I might be masturbating to, or which TV channel I prefer watching, I will take this anyday over the UK being another Syria or The Lebanon.

They do that's the entire issue though... we have the right to a private life without state interference, atm they have to apply to snoop should there be a need, why is this not sufficient it's working perfectly well.
We are not Syria because of these rights.
Countries the world over are crying out for democracy and civil rights and all we want to do in the UK is give them away it seems :/

If it "worked perfectly well" they would not be applying for more powers. They're not doing it for laughs.

I'm in two minds about this.
On the one hand i think MI5 do an incredible job in stopping terrorist attacks in this country and they should get the resources they need.
However,Where is the limit?
There has to be a limit on the power they are given.Nobody should be all powerful and able to do anything they want.A limit on just how much power we are willing to give our security services needs to be established before they are given free reign to do absolutely anything they choose.People have a right to some privacy.
Yes i believe terrorists give away that right with their acts but what about all the innocent people.Innocent people who have'nt committed any crime?They still should have a right to privacy.
So i think any power that is given should be transparent and there should be a limit set by the people(us) by vote on how much power we want to give to MI5.They are here to serve us remember.

MI5 are not now, nor will they ever be, all powerful. They are governed and restricted by a whole host of laws both British and international. Their sole purpose is the safety and security of the UK.

No but i think if no boundary is given to the power they are afforded then it is a slippery slope to that.I mean i'm not a conspiracy guy who thinks they want to create a new world order:laugh: but i think we have to be careful and have a debate on how far we are willing to let this go.

There hasn't been a successful terrorist attempt so what is the measure here? I didn't suggested they were doing it for the comedy.

This is the whole point. There has not been a successful terrorist attempt for a long time just BECAUSE of our Security Services work, now though, there is a definite new threat which they know about and we do not, which neccessitates them asking for the relevant new powers to deal with it.

So you're frightened of something, but you don't know what?...

Genuinely - I am frightened of NOTHING on this planet. I have never said anywhere that I am frightened by this but HAVE pointed out repeatedly that there is a huge difference in being diligent and aware to being hysterical and frightened.

Oh, and I do not need to know details - if our Security Services say that there is a need for more funding/powers to combat 'A' new or increased threat from these demented bastard terrorists, then I trust them and don't need to know.

Kizzy you have it all backwards. when you have a government protecting you, you don't have to be scared, that's the whole point. we have a government that is protecting us and we can trust it, that means we don't have to be scared.

You are the one that seems scared, because you are paranoid about the government.

You seem more scared of the government than we are of the terrorists. and that's so backwards and paranoid.

Stop being so paranoid.

Thank you Alex - Common Sense.

:joker: I'm paranoid because I'm not terrified of an unknown entity?

Ok guys.

IS - an unknown entity?

Hang on... you said you didn't know what the threat was.

So you're so terrified of IS you want everyone in the UKs phone and email records kept indefinitely?

There you go again. You are repeatedly stating that I am 'afraid' 'fearful' or 'terrified' despite me repeatedly correcting you that I am none of those things.

Which is exactly what is wrong with most Lefties on here - they deliberately and wilfully IGNORE facts so that they can say what they want to anyway.

And where have I stated that I wanted "everyone in the UKs phone and email records kept indefinitely"?

Again, just another example of making Strawman statements which are KNOWINGLY false so that you can post what you want to anyway.

:shrug:

Are you, then, saying that you WOULDN'T be OK with everyone in the UK's phone and email records being kept indefinitely?

UK surveillance already access our emails and mobile phones using keyword scanners. This covert surveillance has been going on for many years by M15 and lets remember that M15 remit is the UK and not the rest of the globe.

Will this new surveillance law enable government bodies to store up to 12 months of everyone's personal data? Is this just a way of mass harvesting every phone conversation, text message and email across the land?

In our present time, intrusive techniques such as eavesdropping can or should only be used on those who are seen to pose genuine threat and not for gathering intelligence on the general public or snooping on trade unions as has happened before.

There have been various MI5 security leeks over the years regarding breached snooping but when M15 break the law they are impenetrable and appear to answer to nobody.

Ah yes it's because I'm on the left that I can see you contradict yourself constantly :/
You want them to have more powers, because of the terrorist threat , yet you are not concerned in the slightest about the threat.
It makes no sense.

Nobody is denying that terrorism isn't real but fear mongering in the UK has grown out of all proportion and anyone who observes patterns in a political agenda can’t help but notice that our fear levels seem to be ranked up every time our government want to get a new bit of legislation passed, that otherwise wouldn’t be accepted by the public majority.

I'm not sure why people think that 'lefty' is some kind of insult Kizzy. People clearly haven't noticed that when they try to sling mud at us it just slides straight off!