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thesheriff443 01-07-2018 10:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toy Soldier (Post 10066306)
Humans are gods in a way, humans decide if a person lives or dies, thru a country's legal system/medical treatment, war/lack of food.

Then nature it self can kill, hurricanes/floods/ volcanoes.

thesheriff443 01-07-2018 10:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toy Soldier (Post 10066274)
On the question of the possibility of intelligent design / a "creator" the only sensible stance is to be agnostic. The mysteries of the universe are so vast and deep that it's very possible (probable) that no single human mind COULD even begin to comprehend it, even if it was laid out in the simplest possible terms... And it isn't, so we're very unlikely to ever figure it out on our own. Maybe some sort of advanced artificial intelligence could in a few hundred years? Who knows.

However

Being open to the possibility of *A* god or god-like entity of some description is completely different to being open to the possibility that any one human religion is accurate. Some seem to believe that the thinking of "no one knows the truth for definite... So it MIGHT be Evanglism / Islam / Buddhism!" is a sensible or logical stance. It isn't. The existence of multiple religions, and the fact that NO two separate groups of humans / civilisations have developed exactly the same religion without it spreading human-to-human, makes it almost infinitely unlikely that any of those religions came from on high or contain any sort of universal truth. The only logical conclusion is that they are simple human attempts to understand the mysteries of existence and nature, and to ground and humanise the terrifying vastness of the universe. A comfort blanket, or maybe you could say a "dome of explanations", to shelter from the infinite vacuum of the unknown that lies beyond.

Those unknown aspects of space and time might contain intelligent design. That's very possible. You could call that "designer" God. But it's not Abrahamic God, or any other human god.

Human religions and their rules are collections of fables, myths and legends... Stories we've used to get our heads around it all. No different to Greek gods or (pre-Christian) Roman gods or Norse gods. There is zero logic in believing any differently. Especially given that all of those ancient peoples believed in their gods just as strongly as modern believers do today :shrug:.
I'm also with ts mind set.

Marsh. 01-07-2018 12:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam. (Post 10066163)
Anyway some changed Joseph to Jesus
Some? What are you on about?

Ashley. 01-07-2018 12:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toy Soldier (Post 10066053)
I don't actually disagree with LT to be fair. Abuse is probably too strong a word but I am in total agreement that the indoctrination of children into any religion as "truth" is 100% wrong.
Children can lose faith later on for a variety of reasons, as I eventually did.

The only problem I have is with those who use their religion to commit awful crimes - which happens. Otherwise I have no issue, and certainly wouldn't waste my time belittling something that doesn't concern me.

Edit: That last bit wasn't directed at you, TS

Twosugars 01-07-2018 12:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toy Soldier (Post 10066274)
On the question of the possibility of intelligent design / a "creator" the only sensible stance is to be agnostic. The mysteries of the universe are so vast and deep that it's very possible (probable) that no single human mind COULD even begin to comprehend it, even if it was laid out in the simplest possible terms... And it isn't, so we're very unlikely to ever figure it out on our own. Maybe some sort of advanced artificial intelligence could in a few hundred years? Who knows.

However

Being open to the possibility of *A* god or god-like entity of some description is completely different to being open to the possibility that any one human religion is accurate. Some seem to believe that the thinking of "no one knows the truth for definite... So it MIGHT be Evanglism / Islam / Buddhism!" is a sensible or logical stance. It isn't. The existence of multiple religions, and the fact that NO two separate groups of humans / civilisations have developed exactly the same religion without it spreading human-to-human, makes it almost infinitely unlikely that any of those religions came from on high or contain any sort of universal truth. The only logical conclusion is that they are simple human attempts to understand the mysteries of existence and nature, and to ground and humanise the terrifying vastness of the universe. A comfort blanket, or maybe you could say a "dome of explanations", to shelter from the infinite vacuum of the unknown that lies beyond.

Those unknown aspects of space and time might contain intelligent design. That's very possible. You could call that "designer" God. But it's not Abrahamic God, or any other human god.

Human religions and their rules are collections of fables, myths and legends... Stories we've used to get our heads around it all. No different to Greek gods or (pre-Christian) Roman gods or Norse gods. There is zero logic in believing any differently. Especially given that all of those ancient peoples believed in their gods just as strongly as modern believers do today :shrug:.
I'd like to respond to the part in bold. I said earlier that the more detailed the doctrine the less likely it is. But don't see the point in rubbishing such doctrines. It doesn't help in maintaining dialogue and understanding between people. Besides, as I said before, those doctrines can be flexible and open to interpretation. Most Christian denominations don't insist that the world was actually created in a week, they see a lot of the original scriptures in more metaphorical way. Is it impossible to adopt the Jesus story into a history of a visitation by one of our alien masters, if it come to that? Not really. And Bible may contain more historical stuff that we think. The flood of Noah could have been the refilling of the Mediterranean after the last Ice Age.
I don't know about others but most main Christian denominations have come to accept scientific discoveries like Copernicus's heliocentric system or Darwin's evolution. And now they're open to the possibility of life on other planets. Vatican's Observatory is at the cutting edge of astronomical research.
It's far better to seek common ground and persuade than call the believers stupid or, as you implied, illogical and not sensible.

Maru 01-07-2018 03:16 PM
I like the way my AP world history teacher put it, 2S.. the Bible is one of the best books ever written on the nature of man... there is solid scholarly value in studying religions I think

Beso 01-07-2018 03:28 PM
I used to get a slap round the lug for taking the lords name in vain if i said jesus christ....got a lot worse for saying ****ing hell though.

GoldHeart 01-07-2018 03:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northern Monkey (Post 10066226)
It took over 3000 years for the Egyptian religion and its various incarnations to die out.Some of the contemporary religions are still fairly young in comparison.They’ll all have had their day in another few hundred years.
I’m not against religion though.I find it fascinating as it tends to coincide with the history of the civilisations that created it.
When the religion dies out the civilisation tends to die out too.
I’m not one of these who just thinks ‘religion is bad because it’s only a tool to control the masses’.
Yes it obviously has been used for that specially later on but imo religion came about because there was no other way to explain the world around us than the use of gods and magic.
Imagine living in a world with no scientific understanding.What would your mind use to explain it.Religion is the obvious go too position for the human mind to take.
Trying to reconcile death and grief lead to ritual burial.
It’s a very interesting intrinsic part of humanity.

For a very long time people have been believing in something spiritual,
Yes people want to make sense of the world . I don't know why there's always this GOD vs Science thing though why can't both exist .

Yeah funerals are a good way to say goodbye to the person you've lost ,and prayers and religious services can help people cope and give them some comfort & support.

GoldHeart 01-07-2018 03:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maru (Post 10066184)
Aren't there technically two Marys? One is Virgin Mary... and then Mary Magdelene...
Actually alot of women were called Mary in those times , it was a popular name.

The ones people tend to remember are Mother / virgin Mary & Mary Magdalene but there were other Mary's .

Crimson Dynamo 01-07-2018 03:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MTVN (Post 10066063)
Well been a while since we've had a thread like this, what's spurred the sudden need to belittle Christianity?
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldHeart (Post 10066126)
I never understand the point of mocking people's religion
what on God's earth gave you the idea it should not be routinely mocked?

Kizzy 01-07-2018 04:03 PM
I think if those who proffer to be Christians actually acted like Christians...the world would be a more heavenly place.

I actually think he did exist... I hold on the the thought there is a force for good in the universe, even if sometimes doesn't feel like it.

Brillopad 01-07-2018 04:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldHeart (Post 10066522)
For a very long time people have been believing in something spiritual,
Yes people want to make sense of the world . I don't know why there's always this GOD vs Science thing though why can't both exist .

Yeah funerals are a good way to say goodbye to the person you've lost ,and prayers and religious services can help people cope and give them some comfort & support.
Religion has also caused more war and death than just about anything else. So I see little to praise it for personally. People often get very tribal about religion and want theirs to be the only one with any real say.

Marsh. 01-07-2018 05:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brillopad (Post 10066577)
Religion has also caused more war and death than just about anything else. So I see little to praise it for personally. People often get very tribal about religion and want theirs to be the only one with any real say.
And without religion man would find other means and reason of bringing about death and destruction.

That's mankind, not necessarily religious only.

Marsh. 01-07-2018 05:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet (Post 10066526)
what on God's earth gave you the idea it should not be routinely mocked?
Emphasis on the word "routine".

user104658 01-07-2018 05:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kizzy (Post 10066557)
I think if those who proffer to be Christians actually acted like Christians...the world would be a more heavenly place.

I actually think he did exist... I hold on the the thought there is a force for good in the universe, even if sometimes doesn't feel like it.
Yes, given all of the available evidence it's become increasingly likely that Jesus, the individual, did exist. And that he did good, and through his life gained devoted followers (as many mere mortals do). What's less clear is the account of his abilities... Which were most likely exaggerated again and again through "Chinese whispers" and folklore... E.g. Perhaps him and his followers charitably brought bread and fish to a starving village - and over time this became a story of him "magically" feeding thousands with a small amount of food. Perhaps he brought medicines / medical knowledge from his travels and healed people that others had assumed to be dying, and that story was passed on as "magic".

Its even unclear as to whether he himself ever declared himself the son of / an avatar of God... Or if this was something that came from his followers, possibly even as "rewritten history" after he was executed and became a martyr.

Theology is fascinating in itself and as has been said, its intricately interwoven into human history. But again, the same can be said of ancient Egyptian, Roman, Greek and Norse religions which are now only history - and yet no less valuable or fascinating from a sociological / anthropological viewpoint.

I personally believe that all religions are destined to go the same way over time. Although inevitably, others will spring up in their place from time to time.

Twosugars 01-07-2018 05:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marsh. (Post 10066699)
And without religion man would find other means and reason of bringing about death and destruction.

That's mankind, not necessarily religious only.
That's right. Fascism and communism were not religious ideologies and caused record numbers of deaths last century.

Beso 01-07-2018 05:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kizzy (Post 10066557)
I think if those who proffer to be Christians actually acted like Christians...the world would be a more heavenly place.

I actually think he did exist... I hold on the the thought there is a force for good in the universe, even if sometimes doesn't feel like it.
Nice thoughts kizzy..heres hoping.

Kizzy 01-07-2018 06:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toy Soldier (Post 10066717)
Yes, given all of the available evidence it's become increasingly likely that Jesus, the individual, did exist. And that he did good, and through his life gained devoted followers (as many mere mortals do). What's less clear is the account of his abilities... Which were most likely exaggerated again and again through "Chinese whispers" and folklore... E.g. Perhaps him and his followers charitably brought bread and fish to a starving village - and over time this became a story of him "magically" feeding thousands with a small amount of food. Perhaps he brought medicines / medical knowledge from his travels and healed people that others had assumed to be dying, and that story was passed on as "magic".

Its even unclear as to whether he himself ever declared himself the son of / an avatar of God... Or if this was something that came from his followers, possibly even as "rewritten history" after he was executed and became a martyr.

Theology is fascinating in itself and as has been said, its intricately interwoven into human history. But again, the same can be said of ancient Egyptian, Roman, Greek and Norse religions which are now only history - and yet no less valuable or fascinating from a sociological / anthropological viewpoint.

I personally believe that all religions are destined to go the same way over time. Although inevitably, others will spring up in their place from time to time.
Who mentioned religion?.. I didn't.

Beso 01-07-2018 06:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toy Soldier (Post 10066717)
Yes, given all of the available evidence it's become increasingly likely that Jesus, the individual, did exist. And that he did good, and through his life gained devoted followers (as many mere mortals do). What's less clear is the account of his abilities... Which were most likely exaggerated again and again through "Chinese whispers" and folklore... E.g. Perhaps him and his followers charitably brought bread and fish to a starving village - and over time this became a story of him "magically" feeding thousands with a small amount of food. Perhaps he brought medicines / medical knowledge from his travels and healed people that others had assumed to be dying, and that story was passed on as "magic".

Its even unclear as to whether he himself ever declared himself the son of / an avatar of God... Or if this was something that came from his followers, possibly even as "rewritten history" after he was executed and became a martyr.

Theology is fascinating in itself and as has been said, its intricately interwoven into human history. But again, the same can be said of ancient Egyptian, Roman, Greek and Norse religions which are now only history - and yet no less valuable or fascinating from a sociological / anthropological viewpoint.

I personally believe that all religions are destined to go the same way over time. Although inevitably, others will spring up in their place from time to time.
And perhaps his mum was just the local bike.:hehe:

Marsh. 01-07-2018 06:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kizzy (Post 10066771)
Who mentioned religion?.. I didn't.
You did. You mentioned Christians.

Christianity is a religion. :/

Kizzy 01-07-2018 06:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marsh. (Post 10066798)
You did. You mentioned Christians.

Christianity is a religion. :/
Yes I did didn't I? and I'm sorry I did, it was just to highlight the hypocrisy of some who call themselves Christians but don't abide by anything that he specifically suggested was tantamount to his teachings.

That said there's the theory that Christianity was invented to assert patriarchy an circumvent female/moon/earth worship.... So who knows?

Marsh. 01-07-2018 07:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kizzy (Post 10066815)
Yes I did didn't I? and I'm sorry I did, it was just to highlight the hypocrisy of some who call themselves Christians but don't abide by anything that he specifically suggested was tantamount to his teachings.

That said there's the theory that Christianity was invented to assert patriarchy an circumvent female/moon/earth worship.... So who knows?
Who knows indeed. :shrug:

Crimson Dynamo 01-07-2018 07:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Twosugars (Post 10066767)
That's right. Fascism and communism were not religious ideologies and caused record numbers of deaths last century.
irrelevant

all it illustrates in the ignorance and cruelty of man

Crimson Dynamo 01-07-2018 07:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kizzy (Post 10066557)
I think if those who proffer to be Christians actually acted like Christians...the world would be a more heavenly place.

I actually think he did exist... I hold on the the thought there is a force for good in the universe, even if sometimes doesn't feel like it.
just wishful thinking nonsense without sounding rude

Twosugars 01-07-2018 07:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet (Post 10066926)
irrelevant

all it illustrates in the ignorance and cruelty of man
It was relevant in response to Brillo.

You don't need supernatural for people to cause death and destruction

GoldHeart 01-07-2018 07:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Twosugars (Post 10066934)
It was relevant in response to Brillo.

You don't need supernatural for people to cause death and destruction
At the end of the day free will is here , so yeah regardless murders and wars will always happen that's the ugly side of the world it will never be perfect unfortunately.

And they'll always be killers , psycho's and mentally disturbed people wanting to harm others .

Kizzy 01-07-2018 07:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet (Post 10066928)
just wishful thinking nonsense without sounding rude
You do sound a bit rude but ok.

Brillopad 02-07-2018 05:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Twosugars (Post 10066934)
It was relevant in response to Brillo.

You don't need supernatural for people to cause death and destruction
Oh it helps. Religion has left a trail of D&D behind it for centuries and it is still going on. I would say more people have died in the name of religion than any other reason. To deny it is fruitless. People have used it to control for centuries.

kirklancaster 02-07-2018 08:40 AM
Just to redress a few misconceptions:

'Christianity' was NOT 'invented'. Christianity is a Religion which evolved from followers of the teachings of the historical Jesus.

Religion is NOT the cause of most Wars or bloodshed on this planet - Atheism and Secularity are:

1) Over the past 5,000 years and a total of 1,763 wars fought —only 123 (or about 7%) were religious in nature.

2) When the 66 wars which were waged in the name of Islam are removed, that number is cut down to a little more than 3%.

3) Atheism is responsible for a far greater degree of bloodshed than Christianity and all other religions combined with a body count of more than 100 million in the 20th century alone thanks to atheist regimes like Mao Zedong, Joseph Stalin, Adolph Hitler, Vladimir Lenin, and others.

Sources: ‘The Encyclopedia of War’ by Philip and Axelrod (Three Volumes), ‘Lethal Politics*and*Death by Government’ by R.J. Rummel, and the 2014 report from The Institute for Economics and Peace.

Nicky91 02-07-2018 08:46 AM
^ don't you forget Hirohito to that list of names, or what was Japan's religion during that regime, i thought he also was part of the Axis regime along with Germany and Italy at world war II, so my point is, isn't he also part of that atheist regime you mentioned Kirk

kirklancaster 02-07-2018 08:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicky91 (Post 10067537)
^ don't you forget Hirohito to that list of names, or what was Japan's religion during that regime, i thought he also was part of the Axis regime along with Germany and Italy at world war II, so my point is, isn't he also part of that atheist regime you mentioned Kirk
Yes, of course, Nicky - Thank you.

Nicky91 02-07-2018 08:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kirklancaster (Post 10067550)
Yes, of course, Nicky - Thank you.
no problem, world war II has been one of the subjects i had top marks for at school, one of the few subjects i had top marks for, unlike maths for example

kirklancaster 02-07-2018 08:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicky91 (Post 10067553)
no problem, world war II has been one of the subjects i had top marks for at school, one of the few subjects i had top marks for, unlike maths for example
Don't worry, Nicky, Diane Abbott is crap at maths (in fact crap at EVERYTHING) and it has not done her any harm career-wise. :laugh:

bots 02-07-2018 08:59 AM
Jesus Christ, this threads gone on a bit :idc:

Nicky91 02-07-2018 09:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitontheslide (Post 10067556)
Jesus Christ, this threads gone on a bit :idc:
nah, it's still about religion, so not really offtopic

Kizzy 02-07-2018 11:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kirklancaster (Post 10067555)
Don't worry, Nicky, Diane Abbott is crap at maths (in fact crap at EVERYTHING) and it has not done her any harm career-wise. :laugh:
And the minister for war is a fireplace salesman... Which links beautifully to my theory that tories are the antichrist. :D

Nicky91 02-07-2018 11:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kizzy (Post 10067732)
And the minister for war is a fireplace salesman... Which links beautifully to my theory that tories are the antichrist. :D
i thought trump was the antichrist, i can seem to remember reading that on here

Kizzy 02-07-2018 11:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicky91 (Post 10067735)
i thought trump was the antichrist, i can seem to remember reading that on here
Nope trump is just your common or garden megalomaniac.

Nicky91 02-07-2018 11:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kizzy (Post 10067742)
Nope trump is just your common or garden megalomaniac.
lol, i can imagine having a sort of donald trump garden knome merchandise, i think they would look cute :hehe:

Crimson Dynamo 02-07-2018 11:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitontheslide (Post 10067556)
Jesus Christ, this threads gone on a bit :idc:
On the road to Damascus


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