Things that are purely skill based can work.

Anything involving speed, strength or stamina will always be dominated by biological males (to the extent that, realistically, women wouldn't even be competing at the top level).

Combat sports like boxing it wouldn't be interesting at all it would be horrific - serious risk of severe injury or death. It's honestly that simple unfortunately. The combination of the vast difference in upper body strength and bone density.

Mixed teams can and do work in some sports (mixed doubles tennis for example, relays etc)

none of Khelif her other opponents had those nose pains like Carini though


and honestly her road to the gold wasn't easy, quite some tough matches for her


so yeah i stick with my opinion on this, Angela Carini should compete at a easier level


and there have been other female boxers whom had defeated Imane Khelif too, like that irish Kellie Harrington

and that is the crux, and to expand on that given that biological men can now identify on a whim as trans and some people would want them to have access to female only spaces and they find that acceptable. If someone is genuinely trans I have no issues with them accessing female spaces as long as they are post op, pre op...no I am afraid as there are too many opportunists, and thats not me being a transphobe, its me being practical about my safety just the same as I would be walking on my own at night, and that is my right.

Do you honestly think straight, biological men who want to harm women will cosplay as a woman to gain access to women's spaces just to assault them though?

If someone is going to break the law and assault a woman, they will do it regardless. The statistics of violence from straight biological men towards women shows that they don't need to pretend to be a woman in order to assault them. They do it anyway. Time and time again.

Yes, I do, for a range of reasons, to access vulnerable women and children, to intimidate, to prove they can access female spaces, to have an easier time in prison...how many men who have raped women have been placed in womens prisons for instance? and one is too many btw

I don’t, how many fake trans women are in prison, dressing and living like a woman daily to be closer to biological women?

In the UK, there were 268 transgender prisoners in 2023, which is an increase from 230 in 2022. Of those, 225 reported their legal gender as male and 43 as female.

The number of transgender prisoners in the UK is difficult to calculate, and the actual number is likely higher than what is recorded. Some reasons for this include:

Prisoners serving shorter sentences are less likely to have a case conference and are less likely to be counted.

There may be confusion over classification among inmates or officials.

Some prisoners with a gender recognition certificate are not counted as transgender.

Thanks, maybe I need another coffee but I can't see from that how many of those transgender prisoners are actually straight, biological males infiltrating as
women in order to gain closer access to women and how many of legitimate transgender women.

I appreciate that women's safety is important, I completely agree it is. What I don't agree with is pretending there is a pandemic of fake transgender females assaulting biological women.

The reason I object is because it does feel sometimes that certain scenarios are blown out of proportion towards a particular demographic that a lot of society doesn't like or understand while other scenarios that are an issue are ignored. It's like people often use it as a fake excuse to malign a group of people they don't like and that's why we should be truthful about actually how much of an issue it actually is.

For example, in the USA the same people who say trans women doesn't be in women's spaces because they are a risk to women are often the same people who say drags queens shouldn't be around children and they're often the same people who object to specific gun legislation despite it actually being a huge threat and a huge killer.

(I am not saying anyone is this thread aligns with that specific example, unless you do and therefore I'd love to know how you measure threat and why energy is put towards one and not the other)

Nobody is saying there is a pandemic, what we are saying is that men are being put in female prisons, men are accessing female spaces, men are participating in womens sport and that is not acceptable, and if you say you feel womens safety is important, what would you do about men accessing female spaces

I agree biological men who are not transgender should not be in women's spaces. I just don't think it's as widespread an issue as being made out. I don't think there are many none-transgender people pretending to be women just to access women's spaces. And I am yet to see any actual figures of biological men who are not transgender and who are pretending to be transgender women that explain why it's such a big issue.

How many would you say it would be for it to be a problem?

ONE


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

There won't be figures because of self ID and how sensitive a subject it is very few people are going to put their head above the parapet and say that a person claiming to be a transwoman is not mainly due to fear off losing their jobs, there have been a few high profile cases of men who raped women prior to transitioning being placed in womens prisons, I dont know how may women need to be a risk for you to take is seriously ...1 2..10...20?

https://news.sky.com/story/transgend...lgirl-12883405

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64796926

A double rapist who claimed to be transgender while awaiting trial...does that not raise alarm bells?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57692993
It is lawful for transgender women to be housed in female jails in England and Wales, the High Court has ruled.

A female prisoner, known as FDJ, had challenged the Ministry of Justice over aspects of the policy.

She claimed she had been sexually assaulted by a trans prisoner but the MoJ did not say whether it accepted this alleged incident had taken place.

The judge ruled barring all trans women from female prisons would ignore their right to live as their chosen gender.

Women's prisons can house inmates who were born male but identify as female, regardless of whether they have gone through any physical transformation or have obtained a gender recognition certificate.

The MoJ argued the policy pursued a legitimate aim, including "facilitating the rights of transgender people to live in and as their acquired gender (and) protecting transgender people's mental and physical health".

The claimant in the case, FDJ, had said she was sexually assaulted in prison in 2017 by a trans woman with a gender recognition certificate (GRC), who had convictions for serious sexual offences.

The claimant's lawyers argued that placing transgender women in the female prisons exposed others to higher risk, citing a claim that transgender inmates were five times more likely than non-transgender prisoners to commit a sexual assault on a non-transgender prisoner.

How many school shootings would you say need to happen for it to be a problem, and would you, a Trump supporter, support the legislation to ban guns due to them being the biggest killer of kids in the USA?

Indeed

1

To put something as simply as possible:

A pillar of effective safeguarding is in identifying and mitigating potential issues before they become a larger issue, NOT a "wait and see" attitude and then trying to stuff the cat back in the bag after there's evidence of a safeguarding problem.

There are plenty of examples of it happening, thus, it will continue to happen and safeguarding considerations need to be made. That might be a blanket ban, it might be something else, but the attitude that "NAH you're over-reacting we don't want to think about that at all 'cos it's OFFENSIVE" is immature and not (or shouldn't be) any part of a rational adult discussion of any issue.

Agreed.

How would you even prove someone isn't really trans? Regardless, it doesn't matter if someone is really trans or not, if they're male in all the physical sense of the word, they shouldn't be in female spaces full stop. Women's rights matter. Women have the right to female only spaces when they're in a state of undress or are vulnerable.

Notice how he ignores this.

The fact that it is just a feeling is precisely why it is being abused by prisoners

They know they cant fool people and take advantage of it

I don’t really understand the point of bringing up another of Americas failures in reference to this. It’s something that has nothing to do with the other

Why not bring up the billionaires using their jets and hurting the ecosystem

Or immigrants who came to the states illegally and sexually assault/murder people

Or our failure to take proper care of veterans and homeless families

I do understand this but I also know that people will piggy back off this with their own prejustice and so even if someone has had all the operations and is taking all the medicine, it still wouldn’t be enough, so that is why I think it’s a more complex issue that needs consideration for all parties involved.

I do appreciate your point and the earlier points completely I just think we need to be careful because while women deserve to feel safe, so do trans people and creating a narrative that trans people are a risk to society when it ain’t quite true is a threat to their life.

sorry I have to come back again on this, and it is inexplicable why the trans community are not more vocal about the people who are using trans self id for their own ends, its not about trans people, its about MEN abusing the system, not sure what there is for people to get their heads around Isla Bryson is not a transwoman HE is a MAN who used the system that is currently in place for his own benefit

Don't waste your time or mine by responding to me anymore.

I feel like this only encourages it

Gun ownership is written into the constitution if the USA. Not sure why you're bringing up the constitutional rights of another country to embroider your argument. Mexico and Brazil both outdo the USA in firearms deaths but no one ever mentions that. I wonder why...?

What's the answer? Maybe just ignoring him?

As I said it's a very complex issue. I do understand your point, but also in another respect, why is it up to trans people to disavow the activity on criminals using their identity as a gateway to be a criminal? If I pretended to be a Republican before attacking a Democrat, is it up to Republicans specifically to speak about it? Or if I attacked someone and claimed it was a religious-led attack despite being atheist? I am not sure.

Secondly, shining a spotlight that is not a widespread issue creates a very real threat to legitimate trans people, so I do understand. Some people will very much blur the lines between the two.

There are many times bigots use negative association with a certain demographic as a bargaining chip to try and prove their own prejudice as truth. For instance, if a gay man is caught being a paedophile, there will be many, many people using one incident to say "See... I told you so". It happens all the time. Hell, I have literally read it on here. And so it's very risky for a marginalised minority to shine a spotlight on something that many people will associate with their identity even if it is unrelated.

I hope I explained that okay.

Are you American, BBXX?

No, why do you ask?

Because in this thread you've spoken about gun deaths in the USA and used an example of Republicans attacking Democrats.

I wasn't aware the conversation purely centred around the UK, particularly as the conversation has centred mainly on a worldwide sporting competition and a Boxer from Algeria.

I bought it up because it's a good example of something posing a risk, yet the rights of the citizens is still given priority. My point was many people who support gun ownership, despite it being the leading cause of death amongst children in the USA, will not support trans women being in women's spaces because it is a risk to women despite the risk they speak about being incredibly low. That doesn't make sense... and goes some way to prove that for many (not saying you or others on this thread) they don't actually care about the risk to women, they just don't like Trans people.

And it's that kind of attitude which is why it's risky linking criminal cis men pretending to be trans to actual trans people, which many people do.

Fine. Just wondered by you wouldn't use examples of UK legislation. Nothing about this story us connected to the USA. Not the boxers and not the Olympics in question.

For the record, I have no problem with trans people. I have a problem with self-identification. It was always going to cause problems and give an advantage to abusers and at the same time make the lives of genuine trans people much harder.

Amen

Khelif's gold under scrutiny once again as feminist group complains

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Gb3NLP1b...jpg&name=small

Women’s rights group ICONS says Imane Khelif’s 🇩🇿 Olympic gold medal 🥇
“should be withdrawn” after medical report claims Algerian boxer suffers from
5-alpha reductase deficiency, a sexual development disorder found in genetic
males.

https://x.com/thbharatcurrent/status...64218463322192

https://www.insidethegames.biz/artic...iny-once-again

Imane Khelif is a biologically born female


how many more times do i need to repeat myself :mad:

I wish you could block ppl on here

Indeed and I think the issue of firearms in the US illustrates quite clearly what I was talking about; there's this idea that we need "loads of evidence" of the risks associated with male-bodied people in women's spaces in order to take safeguarding action... that "if that happens" action can then be taken.

When in reality, we know fine well the risks posed by males to women and girls, and we (the world) have vast experience of human actions and psychology to know that it would be very odd if predatory individuals didn'y take advantage of loopholes in access.

...and (to go back to the US/guns comparison) we have NUMEROUS extremely clear examples of how much harder it is to "un-do something later" rather than taking a proper minute to fully assess the safety implications in the first place. "We'll just hope for the best, forge ahead and think about it later if there's a problem" is not what will happen. If full access is given by law and there does turn out to be a huge safeguarding concern, it'll be very hard to address, and will probably never be fully addressed, or at the very least not before significant harm has been done.

…just an update on the original thread/story…


Imane Khelif: IOC confirms Olympic boxing champion launching legal action over medical allegations…

Imane Khelif, the boxer who won Olympic gold amid a gender eligibility row, is taking legal action over media reports in France allegedly detailing her leaked medical records, the International Olympic Committee (IOC) has said.

The boxer took gold in the women's welterweight competition at this summer's Games in Paris amid huge controversy after the International Boxing Association (IBA) said the Algerian had been disqualified from last year's World Championships for failing gender eligibility criteria.

Khelif's first opponent in Paris, Italian fighter Angela Carini, signalled she could not continue with their bout 46 seconds in, saying she "had never felt a punch like this".

Khelif filed a legal complaint with the French authorities over the online abuse and harassment she was subjected to during the Games, and the IOC said on Wednesday she was now also taking action over new reports which emerged in France earlier this week.

It also said it was "saddened" by the abuse Khelif had received since her appearance in Paris.


"We understand that Imane Khelif has taken legal action against individuals who commented on her situation during the Olympic Games Paris 2024, and is also preparing a lawsuit in response to the latest reporting," an IOC spokesperson said.

"The IOC will not comment while legal action is ongoing or on media reports about unverified documents whose origin cannot be confirmed."

The statement pointed out Khelif had been competing in women's boxing "for many years", including at the previous Games in Tokyo as well as IBA-sanctioned events.

The IBA was stripped of recognition by the IOC last year over governance failures. That meant it was the IOC which ran - and set the entry criteria for - the Olympic boxing tournament in Paris.

The IOC statement added: "All the athletes who participated in the boxing tournament at the Olympic Games Paris 2024 complied with the competition's eligibility and entry regulations, together with all the applicable medical regulations enacted by the Paris 2024 Boxing Unit (PBU).

"As with previous Olympic boxing competitions, the gender and age of the athletes were based on their passport details."

The IOC said the same rules had applied during the qualification period. Its statement concluded: "The IOC is committed to protecting the human rights of all athletes who have taken part in the Olympic Games as per the Olympic Charter, the IOC Code of Ethics and the IOC Strategic Framework on Human Rights. The IOC is saddened by the abuse that Imane Khelif is currently receiving."

Khelif said after winning gold: "I am fully qualified to take part in this competition - I am a woman.

"I was born a woman, I've lived as a woman and I've competed as a woman. There's no doubt that there are enemies of success and that gives my success a special taste because of these attacks."


https://www.skysports.com/boxing/new...al-allegations

she just is one of those women who looks more masculine than others, so i'd also place her into the category of women's boxing, with more women who also look very masculine, who got a lot of muscle, like that it would be a lot fairer for everyone i think


but Imane Khelif is and always has been female




i mean Navratilova also always has been female, while also looking questionably masculine, and not very feminine at all



in my nation you also got a couple

Lucia Rijker, Nouchka Fontijn, Sherida Spitse


whom got very masculine traits, lots of muscle, the former two of which who also were boxers, and the latter who has been a international at our women's football team


to name a couple of examples, sooo to say Imane Khelif is trans is a insult


not every woman looks like a disney princess or social media influencer honestly


no offense of course