All you do is swear and insult, and say bahahah.

Right ok so no rational argument then lol

Don't think you could handle it ;) I'm not talking about Religious people, i'm talking about the Religion.

Well the religion came about for political reasons. Jesus was a Jew like Probeeight said. I just think people like Jesus were good men trying to do good and most Christians follow that train of thought and arent fanatical about it and while there may or may not be a god if theyre doing good it doesnt matter does it? And some are fanatical irrational and misinterpret and twist the bible for their own ends just like some Muslims do

Jesus never intended to start another Religion.

Mark 16:15 (New International Version)

15: He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation.

Don't give me Bible quotes.

No he was spreading the word of his faith...the Jewish one

Yep.

Blimey we just agreed on something...the world may implode hold on!

;)

Is the same response as the case for the accused saying "dont give me real evidence"

FAIL

If you class the Biblr as real evidence then you must be an idiot.

You don't need an excuse to be nice to people. His great works do not disprove the fact that the Bible is not factually accurate. There is no room for debate on that, it is simply a fact.

This is like Christians who say ''where do atheists get there morals from?''. So your telling me if it were not for the Bible you would be happy to kill?

One thing the major world religions do get right is ''treat others as you would like them to treat you''. The golden rule. Most of us are born with a natural sense of this.

Also, I provided numerous arguments LeatherTrumpet might or might not like to tackle. It's a shame he lets his religion down by resorting to abstract point dodging.



Here are some points in relation to using the Bible as a source for litetral truth :



* The Bible is a hodepodge collection of oral history, poetry, legend, myth, geneology, prophesy and visions, some of which date back to nomadic tribes in the Middle East. The problem with oral histories is that they change over time, and there is no way to verify what the original version of any of the accounts in the work might have looked like.

* The oral histories that were eventually included in the Bible were written down by different groups of people over centuries, and copied by hand numerous times, introducing changes and inaccuracies in the process as with any text that is copied (witness the variations in Shakespeare's folios).

* Numerous versions of chapters that have been included in the Bible by various groups (Jews, Gnostics and Christians) exist, and arbitrary decisions have been made as to which ones to include in what is accepted as the modern Christian version of the Bible. Chapters that have at one time or another been included and then removed from the Bible are called the Apocryopha. Some of these, most notably what are believed to be Gnostic texts, differ radically from the currently accepted version of the Bible.

* Both the Old Testament and the New have numerous internal contradictions that render any attempt to deem words of the Bible literally true impossible. For example, there are two different accounts of creation in the Old Testament and major contradictions among accounts of the life of Jesus in the New Testament.

* Linguistic and textual analysis of the Bible has demonstrated that some chapters have elisions or additions made by different authors, making a determination of the 'original' or 'true' version of the Bible problematic.

* There is ample evidence that some elisions and additions to some chapters were made for political reasons, or to express a religious viewpoint that differed from that held by the original author of the chapter.

* Historical sources show that the New Testament is factually inaccurate on matters including the reign of Herod and the Roman census.


And here are some of the many acts forbidden in this moral scripture. I doubt there is a man on the face of the earth who follows the Bible word for word. You cant. It's contradictory.


* Consuming blood, blood in meat is not exempt. (Genesis 9:4)
* Performing any work on the sabbath.(Exodus 20:10)
* Cooking a goat in its mothers milk.(Exodus 23:19)
* Eating fat.(Leviticus 3:17)
* The consumption of pork.(Leviticus 11:7-8)
* Eating a fellowship offering more than three days old.(Leviticus 19:5-8)
* Bestiality.(Leviticus 19:19)
* Planting more then one kind of seed in a field.(Leviticus 19:19)
* Wearing clothing woven of more then one kind of cloth.(Leviticus 19:19)
* Cutting the hair on the sides of your head(Leviticus 19:27)
* Tattoos.(Leviticus 19:28)
* Consulting a psychic or spiritualist.(Leviticus 19:31)
* Being a psychic or spiritualist, punishable by death.(Leviticus 20:27)
* Touching the dead carcass of a pig.(Deuteronomy 14:8)
* Eating aquatic creatures lacking fins or scales.(Deuteronomy 14:9-10)
* Transvestism.(Deuteronomy 22:5)
* Consuming the meat of strangled animals.(Acts 15:28-29)
* For women, speaking in church.(1 Corinthians 14:34-35)
* If you are a slave, disobedience.(Ephesians 6:5)


Have fun, kids!

Get them told! Nice post.

And just because I am in the mood, for all the ladies out there...

* Corinthians, 14:34-35: "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."

* Exodus 21:7-8: And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do. If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her."

* Genesis 3:16: "Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."

* Genesis 19:8 "Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes"

* Leviticus 19:20: "And whosoever lieth carnally with a woman, that is a bondmaid, betrothed to an husband, and not at all redeemed, nor freedom given her; she shall be scourged; they shall not be put to death, because she was not free."

* Leviticus 27:3-7: "And thy estimation shall be of the male from twenty years old even unto sixty years old, even thy estimation shall be fifty shekels of silver... And if it be a female, then thy estimation shall be thirty shekels. And if it be from five years old even unto twenty years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male twenty shekels, and for the female ten shekels. And if it be from a month old even unto five years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male five shekels of silver, and for the female thy estimation shall be three shekels of silver. And if it be from sixty years old and above; if it be a male, then thy estimation shall be fifteen shekels, and for the female ten shekels."

* Deuteronomy 21:11-14: And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife. Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house, and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails. And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife. And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will..."

* Genesis 25:1 "Then again Abraham took a wife, and her name was Keturah." [Only problem is that Abraham already had a wife (Sarah), and an abandoned concubine (Hagar).]

* 26:34, 29:29 "And Esau was forty years old when he took to wife Judith the daughter of Beeri the Hittite, and Bashemath the daughter of Elon the Hittite. ... Then went Esau unto Ishmael, and took unto the wives which he had Mahalath the daughter of Ishmael Abraham's son, the sister of Nebajoth, to be his wife."

* Genesis 32:22: "And he rose up that night, and took his two wives, and his two womenservants, "

* Genesis 36:6: "And Esau took his wives...."

As Artista said. God Delusion, sorted.

I must stress again that it is my belief that both atheism and religion are as bad as the other. People just cant open there minds to the alternatives to the Abrahamic God. When people ask me why I believe in a 'God' they think I believe in a sentient being living in the clouds who cares if I masturbate on Tuesdays. The 'force' that got us here could take any form. Our consciousness might not even be capable of understanding or fathoming this form. I am a big proponent of the idea that this life could be a very small part of a big deal, or that it may simply be a dream in a never ending episode of experiencing one mass subconscious subjectively. The possibilities are endless.

But everything cant possibly come from nothing. Give your mind a little more credit. It's an amazing thing that knows it's own existence. That alone is proof of something for me.

And that's why Richard Dawkins is a moron.

No, what this world needs is a quiet spiritual awakening in private and with each other, through the medium of reflection and love, and away from Church religion, which serve merely as means of identifying oneself. Strength in numbers.

Even religions message of anti-materialism is a fad when you realise you have merely substituted a sacred text for your new material fetish. The Bible looks great. It's big, it's black and it's golden. It looks awesome and convinces you through the medium of aesthetics that it is indeed a good thing.

In reality, no man can teach you the way. Every available existing religious path in the world currently simply evolved from a living, ordinary man or group of living, ordinary men who had there own opinions that caught on until we believed them to be near fact, worthy of faith.

I would recommend at this point, of course, to getting an group of insightful friends, retreat to nature, munching down some psilocybin mushrooms that nature conveniently left there with us and take some drumming or rhythmic apparatus with you [after all, life is merely one long rhythm of impermanence, and music is a creative reflection on that. Music is sacred, folks. It makes you feel things. We have a natural sense of rhythm].

Of course, you could always stay in and watch the X Factor. The choice is yours.

I do not deny that there could be a god, small chance. But to bluntly say there is not would be as bad as them.

I never said the bible was factually accurate, I said I dont see whats wrong with someone following the teachings of the bible and following Jesus. Theres ways of living that benefit humanity and ways that dont...Its within us to follow either path, we arent inherently good or bad, whats wrong with Christians following the same path as Jesus? Thats what am sayin man

Don't get me wrong, I know you never said the Bible was factually accurate, my point is you don't need a reason to be nice to people. And someone following in Jesus' path is certainly admiral, given how morally up to scratch Jesus is in the New Testament [despite what an egotistical bastard he was in the old testament, or was that God? No Jesus is god. But wait, why does he pray to god then? I guess he must be the son of god. The trinity is a fascinating thing!] but it does NOT render religion valid in my eyes. Your still committing good acts in the name of something false.

I could go out on the streets now and give everybody a tenner in the name of Twacksmith, the god of leather pants, but despite my good actions, it would not make what I believe anymore credible.

You will, I should point out, see HOARDS of scientologists in there little yellow jackets helping people and showering them with care at most major disasters in America.

Most of our (and your) morality comes from the Bible

ProbeEight, there is such a concept as context.

For one, a lot of your quotes were injunctions from the Old Testament and part of the Old Covenant.

These were done away with when Jesus died on the cross, and we are under the new covenant where a lot of those rules were never copied across.

With regard to philanthropy, the 19th century reformers were motivated by their faith to assist their fellow human beings.

Can you give me examples of well known atheists or humanists who have done the same motivated by their beliefs?

Do you agree with the idea of original sin?

Are you kidding me? Plenty of people donate to charity, provide humanitarian work, work with various groups, and commit all manner of philanthropy. Both secular and non secular, from ALL religions. That's not what I am here to argue. No doubt there are decent Christians out there doing nice stuff. Plenty, in fact.

So what of the laws in the torah? Were they all done away with too with the advent of Jesus & the New Testament? I speak of course of various passages depicting homosexuals in a bad light, as many Jesus followers still seem to bible bash and quote old covenant and indeed Old Testament verses to back up there homophobia. That's what irks me.

So we are told live by the bible but a great half of it is no longer relevant now that Jesus came? It's this very nature of various interpretations that makes it such a joke, I think. In essence you are proving my point. That and the fact that 'concept of context' is very much a blanket argument. But that's fair, I don't expect you to refute every horrible thing said in the Bible. You do need to sleep tonight.

Out of interest and understanding, and not as a personal attack, again I want to ask you : Do you believe in the theory of evolution? Or do you subscribe to biblical creationism? Because Jesus did. He believed in both the story of the great flood and adam and eve. Are Jesus' beliefs now irrelevant too?

Seems to me the [proven] fact that the earth is MORE than a couple of thousands of years old and The Bible, even in a friendly, New Testament guise, utterly cannot co-exist.

Jesus was a creationist. He is your God & Messiah. Are you a creationist, too?