Well that is the thing, if people are already protesting then it already has hurt, and you are making out like that minority is about 9 or something. There are already a good few mosques in Manhattan, so they don't really need it, they do want it. It's not like the muslim community there have to pray in the street is it? It's not about rubbing peoples faces in 9/11, I just don't see the need for it to be right then when it is upsetting people, that is all. Nobody is stopping them from having a place to pray or blaming them, it's a shame that the idiots gave a bad names to Muslims in general and make people think like that, but building it in that spot won't help matters for the muslim community at all.

Very good post.

And also brilliant points. Especially the bolded part :)

Also, if this goes ahead, it is going to be ridiculously unsafe unless they have 24 hour security on the place.

I can imagine the mosque being under constant threat of attack. Why would people want to pray somewhere where some psycho might come in and blow them all away for the sake of a few extremeists? Seriously. I know I wouldnt knowingly go somewhere where I knew there was a chance of that happening.

"There are already a good few mosques in Manhattan, so they don't really need it, they do want it"
I don't believe your know exactly how many Mosques Manhattan has nor that your an expert on there placement, nor do I think your a demographer with a specialty on the the Muslim population numbers in NY. This argument (above) works onlt if all these things are true.... otherwise your just pulling facts from the air. THEY can decide if the NEED a new Mosque.... your implication that they don't actually NEED a mosque is based on nothing. Who are you to say what they need.
"but building it in that spot won't help matters for the muslim community at all"
Their choice. And it will help matters. It's the US saying to the Muslim community "we don't blame you".

Think on a news report I saw it said 9 not 100% on that, but not pulling facts from nowhere. Well may or may not help matters, who knows. But we won't really agree on anything here, so we'll have to see what happens lol

"ALlah doesnt care where you pray, as long as its clean. And if buiding a mosque at a certain location would cause some people pain, it should not be done. This is why a lot of religious leaders, fail iIslam. They fail to remember that above all, its a religion of peace,. And in this case, peace would mean, to go bulid the mosque somewhere else, without causing any controversy!"
"its a religion of peace"
then why blame it by denying them the right to build a Mosque? Denying them that right is like saying "we blame you". Those that mistakenly blame 9/11 on the wider moderate Muslim population should not be proved correct by this building being stopped.
"And in this case, peace would mean, to go bulid the mosque somewhere else, without causing any controversy!"
Building a Mosque isn't controversial unless people believe there IS a link between those Muslims wanting to build it and the terrorists.

lol fine ... it's midnight here :P

Why would 'they' as you say, want to build a mosque where it would cause more pain to the people who have already had their lives ripped apart by the extremists? If Islam is such a peaceful religion?

Wildcat has a point, and you know it.

I know, but we'd only end up going over the same points again lol Plus you've decided to take on Vicky now, good luck ;)

InOne, your argument against ange7 keeps falling flat on its face.


Terrorist Attacks on U.S. Soil by Group, From 1980 to 2005, According to FBI Database
http://a.imageshack.us/img830/516/57685004.jpg

I honestly think think that this has less to do with a muslim community centre being built near ground zero and more to do with a small group of people who believe that muslims are building on 'sacred' ground just to spit in the face America. If people are so upset about this, do people have a problem with the shinto shrine near pearl harbour? What about this: In 1070 Pope Alexander II ordered the Normans to do penance for killing so many people during their conquest of England. So William the Conqueror vowed to build an abbey where the Battle of Hastings had taken place, with the high altar of its church on the supposed spot where King Harold fell in that battle on Saturday, 14 October 1066.

The point is, this is being made a big deal because the extremists claimed to be muslim so 1.5 billion muslims are being tarnished with the same brush. If they happened to be christian, religion would not even come into play, their nationality would.

No it isn't. And why are you posting that about the % of terrorist attacks? What has that got to do with anything?

It's obvious that a lot of people don't just have a problem with the ground zero issue but with islam itself. To think that muslims are a threat or that this mosque is an offensive attack is asinine. It is not being built on or near sacred/holy ground and doesn't intend to represent hatred or violence. It's a muslim community centre ffs. The pie chart was just an example of how America prioritize their focus on the wrong things.

Protest against muslims because the extremists were muslims. Invade Iraq because the extremists were Iraqis....oh wait a minute, they were Saudis. A nation that shares a special relationship (and oil supply) with the US.

The whole thing is just fear-mongering and ignorance spurred on by right-wing extremist groups and idiots who can't think for themselves.

Well you've already seen my views on the matter. But will be interesting to see how the whole thing pans out.

As Muslim extremists were responsible for 9/11 - then of course there is a link to Muslims - and the building of a Muslim mosque is going to cause pain and insult to thousands of people!

A moderate Muslim would surely empathise with that and want to show some respect - not to mention - to do something that is bound to be perceived as very provocative in such fragile times is incredibly insensitive - why would moderate Muslims want to damage their own chances of successful integration into American society this way! It is asking for trouble - and seems in very poor taste!

I am not saying they dont have the right. The perfectly have the right to build a mosque there, and its gonna go ahead. But knowing that there are strong opposition, it doesnt hurt to build it somewhere else.
I dont mind that they build the mosque there obviously, but I know that it will attract drama, and things are gonna go down, after its built, thats inevitable. And Islam doesnt need that, with all the anti muslims of these days, and it will go back and forth.

I know we are not all responsible for terrorists attacks, but you have to take some responsibility. Its like when your relative does something bad, it still reflects on you somehow.

Bottom line is, if they feel they absolutely have to build the mosque there, then fair enough, but I just dont think they do.

I aGREE, its anti islamic for sure, it has nothing to do with ground zero at all. Same thing is going on all over Europe, where they have all kinds of reasons why mosques shouldnt be built (minaret is too tall, the mosque is too big etcc, all kinds of Bull****) but thats what they decide to use as an excuse for this one.
My point is, let them have this one! If its such a big deal, let them have it, and they wont have anything to complain about whatsoever. Thats why I said, just go buid it a little farther away. The people upset, will still be upset, except this time, they wont have an excuse, other than anti islamic! They cant hide behind the ground zero excuse.

Yes because moderate and casual muslims are REALLY rallying behind the building of this aren't they? Just because they're muslims doesn't mean they don't have sense and anyone with sense knows that this is going to cause violence towards any innocent muslims foolish enough to go to that mosque.

Not all muslims are in on some plan to convert everyone and everything and not all muslims are supporting this.

That's what I hate about topics like this, millions of people get demonified due to the actions of a few. Muslims are people just like us. They aren't one single concience that's got an evil agenda for our way of living and they aren't some sort of Sci Fi threat. I can guarantee that there's many muslims opposing, you just won't hear their points of view because it doesn't fit in with the narrative. You'll only hear from the extremists because that causes fear and fear sells newspapers. It's called a Moral Panic, look it up.

Anyway now I've got that out of the way, my opinion is that it shouldn't be built, NOT because of the ignorant masses baying for blood but for any practioners that could get harmed in the crossfire.

Don't patronise me - you're not the expert you seem to think you are! My views are based on many things - not what I read in the Daily Mail or any other paper! What an arrogant remark!

I am not saying all Muslims, moderate or otherwise are supporting this, but clearly it is not just extremists behind this! What has moral panic got to do with anything - not about fear, just about commonsense prevailing over bad taste!

Regardless of anything else - it is disrespecful to build a mosque so close to ground zero! 9/11 was carried out by Muslims - regardless of nationality - and that is what is going to upset, not only the relatives of those who died, but many others as well!

To then go and build a hugh symbol of the Muslim religion so close to the site of such an atrocity - is laughing in the face of the Americans - including those that died and their families! Of course it can't be allowed! In the end - common sense and common decency - rule the day!

I am sure Mayor Bloomberg and co notes the concern of people who violently disagree with this mosque being built. However it is a reasonable distance away from the actual site of what was the Twin Towers.

Initially the opponents of the mosque made out it was on the site of the atrocity, in order to make capital out of perceived public distaste, however common sense has prevailed.

Incidentally for those saying it is laughing in the face of common decency, what distance would you recommend, do you also recommend creating an exclusion zome for any muslims who live or work near the site of the 11/9 disaster?

It looks pretty close to me - Daily Mail or not! Too close in my opinion - and obviously those of many others!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ound-Zero.html

This mosque is probably gonna go ahead, it has been approved and everything, and no laws, or constitutional parts, is gonna stop it. It would be anti american, to even consider that. I dont want the mosque to be stopped, because of some law, or judge ruling. That would open up all kinds of possibilities of intolerance towards muslims in the future. So that better not happen, because then you are really asking for troubles. So its only up to the project leaders.

Like I said, seeing peoples views on it, I dont think it would be a bad thing to build it somewhere else. And that brings up another point: HOw far away is good enough then? BEcause as far as I know, the mosque isnt visible from Ground zero. What would be the appropriate distance? If you think about that, it sounds pretty stupid to be honest! I am pretty sure that whoever opposes this mosque wont be happy regardless of where its built. The most vigorous opponent, dont live anywhere near Manhattan. They will still see mosques, not even that far away from ground zero. So really it wont change a thing. Except, this gives people justification for showing indignation and intolerance.

The whole point of the mosque was to open up the islamic culture, to a greater audience. NOt to convert anyone, but to educate them more about what Islam really is. A lot of non muslims complain that they dont know what goes on in mosques, and would like to know. This was a perfect opportunity, because it would be completely opened to anyone of any faith and any background, and I suspect everything would be in English, apart from prayers. The mosque is maybe 10% of the project.

Another interesting statistics, and that relates to my point about the vast majority of opponets: New yorkers, dissaprove of the project with a very small majority, like 53 to 47, and residents of Manhattan, approve of it, with a large majority, about 60 to 40. And that tells you, the people who are most concerned, are the once who have no problem with it. Once again, its the one who really wouldnt be affected at all, that shows its intolerance, and that includes myself of course.

A lot of my friends in the US, muslims and otherwise, after hearing my views on this, think Ive seen too many instances of religious intolerance (mostly islamic) in Europe, that I am willing to compromise, and let this happen here. Maybe they have a point. I might have felt differently, 3 years ago. Thats why the law would never stop such a thing in the US. It can only be voluntary! I am thankful for that!

Moral Panic doesn't just mean panic or fear, it can mean stirring up anger as well. Think of the Jonathon Ross phone scandal, that was something small until the Daily Mail picked it up and stirred the pot, that was anger rather then fear but it can still be classed as a moral panic. If it wasn't for the media incorrectly reporting that it'd be built on Ground Zero would we be aware of it at all?

We're all guilty of being misled by Media, i'm not being arrogant like you always say I am. I'm just saying it's the main reason why Islam is so demonised because the media has stirred the pot for years. If another terrorist attack were to happen that was committed by a different group we'd all be in fear of them and the media would have a new target.

But I agree with Shasown and Wildcat, I just hope the more hardcore opposition don't do anything stupid.

Oh I see - 9/11 and 7/7 were simply fabricated or exaggerated by the media - they didn't really happen - or perhaps they weren't perpetrated by Muslims!

We are all just idiots who have got the wrong end of the stick! I see! :sleep:

Yes lets hope they don't sink to the depths of the depraved behaviour of extremist Muslims!

Once again, you get it wrong (an increasingly common occurence). I'm talking about the demonisation of many innocent people since those events, I didn't even mention anything about 9/11 and 7/7 so you can stop playing that game right there. At the end of the day it was a few Saudi Arabian Muslims that attacked those who aren't representative of an entire faith, just like the peadophile priests aren't representative of Catholicism or the IRA a representative of Ireland.

I'm talking about the targeting of muslims since then in the general media, they're being made out to be some sort of heinous bond villains and innocent people are being made to suffer for it. I've seen it with my own eyes and it ain't right. Good people who just happen to be muslim are being persecuted by the public for their faith and I don't agree with that. I'm not saying all muslims are innocent, there are extremists and people who do support those horrendous actions but that doesn't mean the whole faith has to suffer. I'm sorry but I've seen the kind of hatred the media stirs up and it sickens me.

Target the individuals for the crimes they commit, not the whole.

HOw did I not see your post? You said almost exactly what I did! :)