Originally Posted by Omah (Post 5817310)

Of course it does - we live in a democracy

Originally Posted by Omah (Post 5817310)

where an oppressed and unequal minority has won substantial rights but where the interests of the majority hold sway.

:idc:

Originally Posted by Jack_ (Post 5817313)

Indeed it is about gay marriage, and you appear to be implying that such legislation should be pushed back further in order to satisfy the needs of the rest of the electorate, to which I'm saying the battle to get this day to arrive has been far too long and difficult for those involved for us just to turn around and say 'ah well it should've been done another day tbh!', the wait has been far too long. The interests of this particular minority group are, in this instance, more important than anything else.

Originally Posted by Jack_ (Post 5817322)

That's another debate entirely.



Again, said 'majority' have, by and large, not experienced for themselves the hardship that has faced LGBT people for decades, and not understood the desperation that they have to get married. It's very easy for Dave, a 40 year old married, straight man with two children to say 'well I want the immigration problem to be sorted out before this gay marriage stuff!', regardless of whether he supports it or not, when he himself has not experienced first-hand what it is like to be a gay man with a partner, wishing to get married, and having wished and hoped for that all of his life.

This issue has gone on for far too long to just be brushed aside. Once it's dealt with, and LGBT have been given the equality they so rightly deserve, then, just as I hope and understand too, the focus can return to the other issues facing the UK. I am no Tory, and I too certainly question whether this is a ploy by Cameron to deflect attention away from other coalition policies, but quite frankly I couldn't care less - pushing this legislation forward is much more important than endless cynicism.

Originally Posted by Jack_ (Post 5817322)

Again, said 'majority' have, by and large, not experienced for themselves the hardship that has faced LGBT people for decades, and not understood the desperation that they have to get married. It's very easy for Dave, a 40 year old married, straight man with two children to say 'well I want the immigration problem to be sorted out before this gay marriage stuff!', regardless of whether he supports it or not, when he himself has not experienced first-hand what it is like to be a gay man with a partner, wishing to get married, and having wished and hoped for that all of his life.

This issue has gone on for far too long to just be brushed aside. Once it's dealt with, and LGBT have been given the equality they so rightly deserve, then, just as I hope and understand too, the focus can return to the other issues facing the UK. I am no Tory, and I too certainly question whether this is a ploy by Cameron to deflect attention away from other coalition policies, but quite frankly I couldn't care less - pushing this legislation forward is much more important than endless cynicism.

Originally Posted by Jack_ (Post 5817322)

Again, said 'majority' have, by and large, not experienced for themselves the hardship that has faced LGBT people for decades, and not understood the desperation that they have to get married. It's very easy for Dave, a 40 year old married, straight man with two children to say 'well I want the immigration problem to be sorted out before this gay marriage stuff!', regardless of whether he supports it or not, when he himself has not experienced first-hand what it is like to be a gay man with a partner, wishing to get married, and having wished and hoped for that all of his life.

Originally Posted by Omah (Post 5817323)

No, they're not.

Originally Posted by Omah (Post 5817325)

Quite frankly, on this issue, the electorate couldn't care less.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...ervative-party



:idc:

Originally Posted by Omah (Post 5817338)

and your experience?

Originally Posted by Glenn (Post 5817340)

Why should gay marriage be pushed aside though? That's what I don't get.

Originally Posted by Jack_ (Post 5817350)

...which is completely irrelevant considering the debate here is over the lack of experiences the majority of the apathetic electorate have had on this issue. I'm not apathetic to this bill, therefore I am not part of this majority that you continually keep referring to.

Originally Posted by Omah (Post 5817354)

The issue, AFAIC, is not that it should be pushed aside but that Cameron has brought gay marriage to the fore on a pretext that was neither in the Conservative Party manifesto nor given to the government as a mandate by the electorate - since well over 40 election promises have already been broken, why has Cameron placed so much emphasis on the success, and publicity, of an issue which concerns almost none of the electorate but which antagonises his own party while satisfying the aims of the opposition?

:conf:

Originally Posted by Omah (Post 5817357)

You were, apparently, quoting other people's experiences, presumably because you could not draw on your own, then criticising the electorate for a lack of experience, which would appear to be your own dilemma.

Originally Posted by Jack_ (Post 5817347)

Yes, they are. A marginalised section of society's opportunity to bring themselves up to the level of the rest of the country who can already get married is of much greater importance than issues facing the majority of the electorate. Issues that, whilst important, can wait - especially considering this piece of legislation has had just about enough of a wait, thanks.



You're not getting it are you? No opinion poll or statistic is going to change the fact that regardless of your political beliefs, what you consider to be pressing issues facing this country, whether you support same sex marriage or not - this is a long overdue piece of legislation that a minority group have waited decades for and it is essential that it is passed sooner rather than later (as it should have been passed years ago), so that equality prevails, bigotry is given a kicking and we as a society can move on and this no longer has to be an issue.

Originally Posted by Jack_ (Post 5817361)

Again, you're missing the point.

You: Quoting opinion polls that are supposed to show the lack of current interest towards this issue by the majority of the electorate.

Me: Explaining how it's likely that they're disinterested because it doesn't directly affect them (that's not to say they disagree with the legislation, they are merely apathetic towards it, at least at the moment) - they're not LGBT (and the majority aren't) and so the chances are that they won't have had much experience with LGBT campaigns. Some will have, but the majority won't, and that is how I would explain their supposed lack of current interest in this bill, and why they regard other issues as more important.

In fact, it's one thing even having this bill passed, but the day that a LGBT issue becomes the main concern of the majority of the British public, over other issues that you have raised, will be even more of a historic moment. That day, as sad as it is, is still quite a way off I believe.

Originally Posted by Glenn (Post 5817360)

And you say it concerns almost none of the electorate. I think the LGBT community would disagree with that completely, and to suggest such a thing is absurd.

Originally Posted by Omah (Post 5817369)

OTOH, Kizzy believes that Cameron has the public backing in support of the issue.

So which is it ?

IMO, "they are merely apathetic towards it", as you say, and as the poll proves.

The bill will now get lost in the House of Lords for a few years and the "Big Issue", having distracted the punters for a few days, will assume its rank in the interests of the electorate (currently 12th, IIRC).

Originally Posted by Glenn (Post 5817377)

The thing is Omah, it may not seem to be a 'Big Issue' with you, but it to thousands of others.

Originally Posted by Vicky. (Post 6004520)

Why is this down to a MP vote? MPs get to vote on basic human rights now?

If anything, the public should get their say. I trust them more.

Originally Posted by arista (Post 6004601)

its to to try to Wreck the Gay Vote