http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/...fits-cap/11739

Ah. 10 families in the uk claim benefits and have 12 kids. Yes, a massively widespread problem :o

I feel I need to make it clear here that I am not supporting popping out kid after kid and expecting the state to support you/them. However, again, I don't see a realistic solution to it. And I don't think so much emphasis needs to be put on it when the reality is the amount of people doing this IS very small, no matter what some would try to make you believe.

I agree with pretty much everything Demolition and Vicky have said. The Benefits witch hunt is just a distraction and a vote grab aimed at the middle classes who look at Shameless and think it's a documentary. The Media only run with it because Benefits (and Tax issues) are one of three subjects that will always lead to high circulation numbers, the other two being peadophillia and Terrorism. Every time anything happens involving these three, newspaper editors across the country rub their hands together in glee.

People who need benefits are an easy target, one that's rarely defended due to the fact that these people have been demonised at every turn.

If you were that concerned about Data Protection you would not have mentioned this supposed baby factory of a woman in the first place, confidentiality isn't something that you can switch on and off when it suits your argument.

The numbers don't make sense, the story doesn't make sense and that excuse doesn't cover it. You may as well admit that you made it up.

Not only that, but just look at the title of the article. Emphasising "£11 million" like it means something, knowing that their thick readers will see those figures and think "OMG dats a lot of money omg". In terms of the budget, £11 million is nothing. It's a grain of sand. A completely insignificant amount of money.

The UK's military expenditure is 37.5 billion pounds.

That's £37500 million. And by here's this rag making the utterly ludicrous claim that "taxpayers" should be worried about the £11 million going to a tiny minority of families with a large number of children.

Brilliant post and the post of the thread for me.
It really astounds me that people believe the media rubbish and the 'so called need' from this particular govt; to do something about it.

As you rightly point out and offical statistics on many debate programmes bear your argument out too as to benefit fraud being a 'tiny' problem.
It is disgraceful that people on benefits are generalsed as being demonised in the media, fuelled by govt; statement after statement that seems to call for a need to for 'benefit scrounging' to be stopped.

I admit,I believed a few years ago that it likely was much larger than it is, however, I got into a law firm and I ended up seeing the problems people really in need and also even terminally ill, were having with the new govt; clampdowns and re-assessments of benefits.
As I got to work with others on the issues people had, as many turn to law firms now due to the CAB being swamped with problems and other organisations also unable to cope.
I was stunned at the times an appeal against a benefit cut or total loss, ended up at tribunals or courts,which were in the main amost all overturned 'eventually' in the claimants favour.

The vulnerable and those doing things right suffer heavily when attacks like this are made on them, then they have the added insult of the stigma of being on benefits and people branding them all cheats and scroungers.
Even govt; ministers.

I agree in part with how you ended your post as to if you think someone is getting benefits wrongly report them,I agree it would then be looked into obviously.
However should someone accuse someone wrongly I would like to see the book thrown at them, after some of the horror stories I have seen happen to people in dire need who then often have a long road of appeals and trauma before getting all re-instated.

Absolutely a brilliant post from you on this topic,I have to say,one that leaves me dismayed so many can be swayed by govt; propaganda and the medias gross misrepresentation of the facts.

Exactly it's just another folk devil dreamed up to keep the tutters tutting about something that doesn't involve the establishment atm.

I hope that you're not implying that I personally, am resentful of this woman?
She has nothing that I want or envy.

I don't understand how a truthful post attacking fraudulent claimants because they are abusing a system put into place to assist poor people in genuine need and therefore diverting much needed funds away from them, is always perceived as both an attack on the system itself and those in genuine need of its help?

I am not defending my stance, because I have already made clear that I am not attacking the genuine claimants or the Benefits System just those very real people in every town and city who abuse it.

I know what I know, and it doesn't matter how many disagree.

Please do not imply that I am a liar. You are supposed to be a moderator and above this type of juvenile behaviour. And as for Data Protection, it is one thing to be non-specific with general details but quite another to delve into sensitive information.

I am not a liar.

I am not swayed by any government propaganda Joey - no more than I am about to capitulate and change the truth of what I know from personal direct experience just because my view is unpopular.

If the government officials and medical staff wrongly asses genuine claimants as fraudulent or able to work, then those injustices are later officially overturned and benefits rightfully restored - then that is very welcome. But all this means is that genuine people are wrongfully being targeted and having their benefits wrongly taken away by an inefficient government screening process. It has no bearing whatsoever on the very real examples of benefit fraudsters who are cheating the system - irrespective of numbers.

If anything it further scandalises government policy, because their initiative should be screening out these fraudsters not wrongly victimising genuine claimants.

I'm afraid that merely reporting benefit fraudsters does not always result in the cheats being punished. If only it was that simple.

I had the tenants of a detached house in Burnley, Lancashire 'do a moonlight' and they left the property in a trashed condition. To cut a long complicated story short, the property was left empty for several months awaiting the catalogue of works needed to restore it. When I went to the property to start work, the next door neighbour told me that the ex-tenant was regularly coming back to the property and entering it by key and collecting his mail despite the fact I had changed all the locks.

When I left the property after working on it, I screwed up and secured the all the external doors from inside. The next day when I entered, there were several letters addressed to the ex-tenant on the hall floor which had been posted through the letterbox. One - clearly - was a Housing Benefit giro cheque, yet these toe-rags were both self-employed and ran 2 businesses in Burnley, and were supposed to have been funding the rent from their own pocket.

I rang the Housing Benefits and told them what had happened and pointed out that they may have been fraudulently claiming from day one without my knowledge. After some time, the HB employee I was talking to said that they had - over £6,000 in total - and that she was putting me through to someone else. She did put me through and the person I was then talking to said; "Just tear it up love if you will and bin it". I had quite an argument with her but got nowhere as she kept maintaining that; "there wasn't anything they could do", even when I said that surely it was obtaining money by deception - especially the 3 months which he had continued to claim for when he wasn't even living in my property.

Like all customer services via phone, the degree of response and service you actually obtain depends on who you end up talking to - some just can't be bothered.

Anyway, I have no problem with anyone disagreeing with my view - that is their prerogative on a forum - but I have a problem understanding just why they should disagree when all I am attacking are those who are fleecing the system.

Read my post again and you will see clearly that I am not referring to anyone with large families claiming - and I never said it was a 'massively widespread problem'. I was referring specifically to certain fraudulent claimants who I know from direct personally experience are cheating the Benefits System.

I am also convinced that - although admittedly in a minority - the problem of Benefit Cheats is not as 'tiny' as people think.

In any event, I do not understand the hostility to a post which is clearly not attacking the Benefits System or genuine claimants but only those who are claiming when they should not be.

It does not matter one iota either in my book whether the total claimed by benefit cheats is £3 million, £11 million or £100 million P.A - it is still desperately needed money that is being diverted from those genuine claimants who need such benefits.

The hostility is likely because you reckon you know 'personally' 8 obese women who are claiming..all who have 2-5 kids by different fathers, and their exact income. Along with 'dozens' of people who are fit and well but don't want to work. Along with someone whos cheating the system on a massive scale whilst playing football...that post is like some daily mail wet dream in all honesty...

I doubt there would have been as many questioning your post if not for the ridiculous amount of people you reckon are playing up, and that you reckon you have inside knowledge of their income also.

Business in a nutshell. If you are referring to the issue being discussed Vicky. Business which involves Application Forms being filled in and the processing of certain documentation.

Why would I lie? I am not out to make Political Capital by fabricating Right Wing propaganda. I am attacking fraudsters not poor people. The same way in which I denounce Islamic Terrorists and NOT ordinary Muslims.

It is not what I am saying, it is the misconception by others of what I am saying which people take issue with. I have not made one insincere post on here and I only speak about what I know.

I have no affiliation to any political party - electing to vote on the day for what I regard as the lesser of all evils, because I believe that the whole corrupt system needs serious overhaul and purging.

I really take umbrage at being called a liar. Will you wager £1,000 with me if I prove to say, Josy, or maybe Kyle, the truth of what I am saying? The winnings can be donated to The McMillan Cancer Support Charity.

I am not desk-bound and learning my knowledge from mere reading or from moving in relatively sheltered circles. All my life - from being 22 anyway - I have run my own businesses and have moved through all levels of society as a consequence.

I do not exaggerate or tell lies. Why would I?

In any event - are you actually claiming that no such people as these exist?

I was meaning the electorate in general Kirklancaster, I would never get at you or any other member,which would be against the rules anyway.

What annoys me is that you can get these odd few cases of extreme incidents of claimants and benefits, which are splashed all over the media and then you see polls later which are saying,since likely those interviewed have taken that as gospel, voters take the view that those on benefits must be claiming wrongly.

I see you have listed 2 incidents, I could list incidents I have come across as well,as to incorrect claiming of benefits.
However for every one of those wrong casesI could list in double figures, claims that are right.

I object to these odd cases being presented as the norm and the further millions demonised because of that.
Also you state, someone who has their benefits removed wrongly, get them back and that is good.
However the point is, they should never have lost them in the first place and I have to add that great numbers of people are losing benefits day in and day out wrongly, due to this particualr govts; near persecution and hounding of them.

Also getting their benefits restored can take on average 6 months to a year or even longer, especially when you have to end up going to the courts to achieve that.
These are genuine claimants who are deprived of entitled funds for that time, they don't get it restored until the appeal is won.
That can be devastating and far too long for people who really need the funds to be without them.
That should not happen and should never be right,this govt; gets told this by the CAB, welfare groups and charities endlessly but just arrogantly dismisses those concerns.

This govt; which I am I admit, fed up to the back teeth of, has caused misery for massive amounts of genuine benefit claimants.
The unemployed with their daft sanctions, the changing of names of benefits with even more daft and ridiculous questions that decide if they even get them and the distress and anxiety caused to genuinely sick and disabled people, even those incurably and terminally ill too.

All done on the strength of these odd one or 2 cases that are presented as proof of wrong in the system but which ignore the fact that all but a very tiny proportion do everything pretty much right.

The zeal this govt; employs to save this bit from here and there as to people who are most vulnerable is in my view a disgrace.
All govts; have failed to get to grips with the benefit fraud issue,maybe that is because it is so hard to find because there is in truth so little of it actually happening.

However, as to the weakest,poorest,sick and disabled and therefore the most vulnerable I doubt any govt; since the war has been as heartless and showing no compassion in its dealings with the most vulnerable like this one has been.
It is disgraceful in my view and although sick of saying how wrong I think this govt; treats the most vulnerable in the UK, I feel the need to keep doing so in the hope that decency from the electorate will prevail and they will turn on this govt;for its cowardly beating with a stick those who are among the most in need.

All its language, all its policies as to them is aggressive and bringing them down rather than building up.

So when I see a case or a few cases even of benefit cheating,I quantify it and qualify it by telling myself, from the experience I have found from getting in there with people,that those cases are a tiny minority as Demolition Red said,I prefer to look out for the vast majority who do things in the main, right.

I feel ashamed that any govt; allows a media,especially our lying corrupt media,to demonise those most vulnerable and set those in work against those not for whatever reasons.
However I add total disgust to being ashamed too when I see govt; ministers and even the Prime Minister doing so too.

I see no justification for it whatsoever and for me the sooner these arrogant cowards are sent packing the better for me, will the alternative be better, I have to hope for that but I am sure of one thing, some high level of compassion needs to be instilled into the welfare policies and I have no belief this govt; even knows what compassion is.

Yeah go on then. No problem. Though wont these 'data protection issues' that you speak of prevent you from proving anything? :laugh:

Of course not :laugh: I have even said in my posts that I do not support such behaviour at all. I would never deny that they exist. I actually do know one guy who is actively scamming the system who has been reported numerous times yet always finds a way around it (one time by posting razor blades and dog **** through his OWN letterbox and calling the police to say it was a homophobic attack or something similar, and now he is afraid to leave the house...)

What I find hard to swallow is that one person who comes across as seriously right wing generally, personally happens to know EIGHT people who are obese and have loads of kids by different fathers and knows their exact income situation. And along with that knows at least 12 (dozens implies more though) people who chose to be on benefits instead of working and make a fact of saying so if you know about it. And to go with this you know people who manage to pass the work capability assessment with ease whilst playing football...when people with no arms and legs are being found fit for work...along with people who have the mental capacity of a 7 year old...its just all so unbelievable to me. Sorry.

Adding to this this woman with 12 kids (who is literally 1 of 10 people in the entire country...) who claims child tax credit in amounts that do not add up to the amount of kids she has and also avoids the benefit cap by some unknown way.

I did nothing wrong, You told a tall tale and you got called out on it. Don't try to make out that I've insulted you because you've been caught in a lie. Also stop bringing up the fact that I'm a mod, I'm doing nothing wrong and your attempts to make out that I have will not work.

Now discuss the topic and stop discussing the fact that I'm a mod.

Joey - the great irony here, is that I do not disagree with anything you are saying. I really don't.

I used to help genuine claimants with their appeals back in the day of 'The All Work Test', and I know that like every ill thought out Government B.S. initiative that more often than not the 'big stick' hits the wrong targets and 'The New Broom' misses the shit and sweeps out the genuine claimants - who are often intimidated, confused and bewildered, whereas the fraudulent claimants 'know the ropes' and being more devious, are harder to shift.

I know how the billions which the Government bailed out the bankers with during the property crash and recession did not result in mortgages being offered to the lower paid or loans being offered to SME's as per the caveat, but found its way into the pockets of their top earners by way of £ million pound + bonuses.

I know that in 2012 the abysmal George Osborn froze personal allowances for over 4.5 million tax-paying pensioners and cut child benefits for the poorest families in the UK so he could fund income tax cuts for over 300,000 of the wealthiest households. That was during the peak of the other 'Austerity Budget', and they're repeating the trick with most of the money raised now by these draconian and heartless cuts finding its way by stealth into the coffers of the UK's wealthiest families again by stealth.

I wish someone would see that I am not attacking the system or genuine claimants, but those crooks who are diverting money from going where it should - those genuinely in need.

I agree, and the disdain is spreading like a virus, the small percentage of fraudsters are portrayed as the majority of welfare claimants and it's believed... regardless of statistics to the contrary.
People who have their head just above the water are looking down on those sinking, they are fracturing communities and society as a whole with this misinformation.
The message from the government appears to be do as I say not as I do..

I told a tall tale! I did not fully expound because the truth is far more horrific.

I really take umbrage at being called a liar and you have just repeated it. Will you wager £1,000 with me if I prove to say, Josy, or maybe Kyle, the truth of what I am saying? The winnings can be donated to The McMillan Cancer Support Charity.

As for; "discuss the topic" - it's not me insulting members but you love. I am discussing the topic and not calling anyone a liar.

I can prove that I am not a liar if you'd like to accept my challenge.

There's no point in betting monopoly money. Now back to the topic at hand.

Who is portraying the small percentage of fraudsters as the majority of welfare claimants Kizzy? Do you mean official propagandists?

I am only claiming that fraudsters exist and doing so from my own personal knowledge.

I gather from your post that it is the portrayal that the small minority are the majority which amounts to misinformation, and I have no argument with that at all.

I won't be on a public forum. If you really think that I am a liar and accept the wager, I will pm Kyle to arrange matters.

Likewise Kirk, I don't disagree with anything from you in your post above, in fact in many of your posts overall on tibb I agree with a lot you say.

Your sentence above that says 'the big stick hits the wrong targets' is totally correct,I agree with that and that is what I come across all the time at present as to the most vulnerable on benefits.
Which is why the policies being enacted and also just about all this govts; ideas are not planned fairly with understanding and compassion.
When that is the case, with such really bad policy making,then the last people that should be hit are the most vulnerable.

I agree with you, although it seems on the surface we disagree, that a lot of the time,maybe we would like to see the same result.
I admit for my sins, I was dismissive in the past up to being 19,as to welfare and benefit issues,I supported this govts; plan to simplify them and even hold back rises for a time too.
However now at 23 I see what they have done and the way they have done it,which is for me 100% unacceptable and also for me beyond any forgiving too for it.

Thank you for your reply above, there we are, 2 posts with total agreement,hey that is pretty good going on here.
I do also see that you ,like myself, and a great many others, would love to see all benefit cheating ended.

My point to that is, with it actually in all truth being so small, it will probably in the end cost more than it saves to try to eradicate it.
While it should always be looked for, investigated and dealt with, it should not be the passionate all consuming demonisation and victimisation which this govts; efforts as to it have resulted in happening overall.

I was replying to Joey agreeing with him on his view on the media and our current govt.

Spot on again Kizzy.