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-   -   Intimate female examinations undertaken by self-identified trans sexuals (https://www.thisisbigbrother.com/forums/showthread.php?t=332542)

Maru 02-01-2018 08:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamie89 (Post 9761907)
Thanks Maru that's all very interesting to think about.

It's interesting you mentioned your grandma's experience. My Grandma is currently experiencing some problems with mental health issues and without going into too much detail on a public forum lol (and it's all pretty complicated), but basically she recently refused help from her GP (who is a man) or to discuss what's been happening recently with him. It wouldn't have even crossed my mind that his gender might have been a factor in her shutting herself off from medical help. And it might not be that, she has quite a complicated history, but it's interesting to consider that she might be more willing to get help or communicate with a female doctor. It's something to think about anyway.
Yeah, obviously it it varies by situation/circumstance, but there are times when being with someone who is better in sync with your specific differences are key to your care. A transgender may prefer another transgender physician for example, because they may see or consider things in someone's care that a non-trans would see. It's just better to have a choice. Obviously, there are times when it doesn't really matter. Like an ER, unless there's some sort of religious practice that not to have a male physician work with you, it should be reasonable enough to deal with whatever. And I don't think God would be too upset if you were unconscious and really had no say... and you wouldn't be aware of it anyway.

My other grandmother when she worked nursing (20+ years ago), she had to deal with elderly pt's who didn't want to be seen by African American men or other men, etc. They had mental issues as well (things like Alzheimers) and would flip a **** and get violent (like panic attack sorta rage) if you didn't comply with them. She's very understanding despite this and says it's pretty inhumane to try to place one's personal/politic motivators over the care of the pt. It's also not worth the time and effort to sit there and argue with them to convince it to do it their way. When she quit nursing, she started care-taking and some of the people she care-taked for were some of the most vile/obscene... like she would drive one old man around and he would scream out at other passengers in other cars "You *****ing n--" (etc)... he had been shot one time for doing that and that didn't change his behavior. He was quite vile. Some people you can't change no matter how much social conditioning you add to the equation... everyone has their neuroses. It's just a fact of life and something she not only accepted but affected her practice. She treated them all the same and they love/trusted her for it. In fact, part of the reason she quit working at the nursing home and went into caretaking was because too many people kept requesting for her. (plus she was getting too old to be doing as much of the heavy lifting)

Livia 02-01-2018 10:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kizzy (Post 9762615)
Been where?..We are not all uniform with replica experiences even of the most base of functions therefore I don't understand your logic here.
To treat a patient do you need such an intense connection, if you were being treated for an ailment would you insist the doctor had experienced it prior to consultation?
Kizzy.... you could talk a pie off a shelf.

Brillopad 03-01-2018 03:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dezzy (Post 9761170)
They are driven by irrationality and ignorance. You've taken what would be a rare and almost unheard of hypothetical scenario and you are treating it like it would be the norm and whether you intend to or not, you are demonising transgendered people by putting them all in the same light as sexual predators.

A man isn't going to be able to say 'I'm a woman now' and stroll into the women's changing room just like that even if self certification becomes a thing. Women won't be made to have intimate examinations done by someone they aren't comfortable with doing it. You've taken what is a story that was confirmed on all sides to be a clerical error, ignored all logic and reasoning that said it was so in order to fuel your own agenda of hating anything that isn't exactly like you.

You should pay attention, I've said to you a few times in this topic that I disagree with self certification, the current process we have isn't perfect and there are many transgendered people who are unhappy with the choices they've made and I think taking the professionals out of the equation to help guide people to the correct solution for themselves is a mistake. I actually agree with Theresa May in saying that transgendered people shouldn't be treated like they are ill but it should be mandatory that experts in the field oversee the process to make sure it's the right thing for the person in question.

As for your 'it doesn't affect you' line. Does sexual assault only happen to women in women's changing rooms? Men can be just as dangerous to other men, just like women can assault other women. Do you treat other women with such suspicion, sure, sexual assault by a woman on another woman in a changing room is probably rare but probably not as rare as an attack by a 'transgendered' person that's only pretending to be transgendered in order to rape people. Where's your concern for the safety of women from other women? Do you understand what I'm getting at here? You are using an almost unheard type of incident to fuel your agenda and it's just foolishness. There are many real issues that plague women regarding their safety that are way more common than the hypotheticals you are spouting but I doubt you'll ever talk about them since you only seem concerned about feminism when it's in regards to 'justifying' your hatred of whatever people you hate on any given day.

I think in all the years I've known you, in both names you've had on this website. I'm not sure I've ever seen you comment on a feminist issue that hasn't involved trying to justify your prejudices in some way. You pretend to be a feminist but you just want to vindicate your hatred.
There you go again - with the hate. That is a word far more common in your vocabulary than mine.

Every time I express opinions on anything involving a minority group you stereotype me as a racist, homophobe etc. Classic shut-down tactics and your problem not mine.

You’re not a woman, you don’t how it feels to be a woman and you will never really get it so don’t try and kid people you know more about feminism than women. You are not the thought police however hard you try to be.

Brillopad 03-01-2018 04:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kizzy (Post 9762615)
Been where?..We are not all uniform with replica experiences even of the most base of functions therefore I don't understand your logic here.
To treat a patient do you need such an intense connection, if you were being treated for an ailment would you insist the doctor had experienced it prior to consultation?
Tell you what you have whoever you want to perform intimate examinations on you but how about you afford the same freedom of choice to others. You make your choice whilst others will make theirs without explanation to you or anyone else.

Vicky. 03-01-2018 04:09 PM
Yeah I read about this a few days ago. If a female is requested, there should be a female doing it.

I know this was claimed to be an admin error, but the transsexual person actually argued with the patient when the patient mentioned requesting a female and they said 'I identify as female' or something...but identifying as female does not make you female. This is absolutely an issue about consent, and I do think that patients should be able to request a certain sex of doctor for intimate examinations.

Vicky. 03-01-2018 04:11 PM
Ah, I didn't read the link as I had already read the story elsewhere, it was not 'I identify as female' it was as the article stated

Quote:
When the patient pointed out the mistake, the nurse replied: “My gender is not male. I’m a transsexual.”
So whilst this was claimed to be an admin error, the transsexual person obviously believes that identifying as female means one is female. Which is false.

Tom4784 03-01-2018 04:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brillopad (Post 9765360)
There you go again - with the hate. That is a word far more common in your vocabulary than mine.

Every time I express opinions on anything involving a minority group you stereotype me as a racist, homophobe etc. Classic shut-down tactics and your problem not mine.

You’re not a woman, you don’t how it feels to be a woman and you will never really get it so don’t try and kid people you know more about feminism than women. You are not the thought police however hard you try to be.
The only person trying to shut anyone down is you by trying to make out that I'm the 'thought police' for saying my opinion. It's what you always do and then in the same breath you'll accuse other people of doing the same to you.

You have no self awareness to the point that it's just bizarre at this point.

I don't claim to know more about feminism than most women, I just know more about it than a faux feminist like you that only mentions feminism when it comes to hating muslims or whichever minority whose turn it is to deserve your bile. You'll accept things like the DUP/Tory deal despite the fact that the DUP want to erode women's rights just because it serves your real agenda of hating muslims/immigrants etc. You are only a feminist when it serves your HATE and yes I will use that word because, while you don't use the word often, it defines who you are as a person perfectly.

Your opinion is not protected from criticism, Brillo. No one's is so stop trying to make out that no one can comment on what is frequent and obvious bigotry on your part. If you don't like those claims refute them.

This is a debate section, DEBATE.

Kizzy 03-01-2018 04:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Livia (Post 9763475)
Kizzy.... you could talk a pie off a shelf.
Oh sorry I thought this was the debate section and that was the idea?...

Kizzy 03-01-2018 04:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brillopad (Post 9765368)
Tell you what you have whoever you want to perform intimate examinations on you but how about you afford the same freedom of choice to others. You make your choice whilst others will make theirs without explanation to you or anyone else.
I will doesn't stop me voicing the opinion that the concept is a nonsense... As in it makes no sense.

As women we don't all intrinsically understand one another, and electing people to perform duties in this field only reaches so far... in a specialised or emergency situation it would be anyone, unless you prefer to not accept treatment in those circumstances also to sustain your 'principles'.
I suspect not many would have their ethics stretch that far.

Vicky. 03-01-2018 04:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dezzy (Post 9758749)
I agree with everyone else that this is ultimately a non-story and the intentions to make this nurse seem like some sort of predator is clear but when it comes to Transgender people I don't think they should be classed as their intended gender until they actually transition.
Definitely agree with this. Transition completed, ok.

However in a medical setting I really do still think that even transitioned transsexual people should not be sent if a certain sex is requested. Luckily the current law does have an exception for this. Just if it all gets changed..it does remove the rights of both women and men to a same sex (or oppiosite sex..I know a lot of men who request female doctors for anything to do with intimate exams) HCP.

Vicky. 03-01-2018 06:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DemolitionRed (Post 9760895)
Men don't get a choice but women do. A man can't refuse a female nurse but a female can refuse a male nurse. Its the same when a nurse or doctor is attending a female patient. If its a male student nurse they have to ask the patient if they mind but if its a female student nurse they don't. Its double standards.
Thats not true. My husband always requests men for intimate exams. And male friends apparently ask for female ones and get them.

Brillopad 03-01-2018 06:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dezzy (Post 9765386)
The only person trying to shut anyone down is you by trying to make out that I'm the 'thought police' for saying my opinion. It's what you always do and then in the same breath you'll accuse other people of doing the same to you.

You have no self awareness to the point that it's just bizarre at this point.

I don't claim to know more about feminism than most women, I just know more about it than a faux feminist like you that only mentions feminism when it comes to hating muslims or whichever minority whose turn it is to deserve your bile. You'll accept things like the DUP/Tory deal despite the fact that the DUP want to erode women's rights just because it serves your real agenda of hating muslims/immigrants etc. You are only a feminist when it serves your HATE and yes I will use that word because, while you don't use the word often, it defines who you are as a person perfectly.

Your opinion is not protected from criticism, Brillo. No one's is so stop trying to make out that no one can comment on what is frequent and obvious bigotry on your part. If you don't like those claims refute them.

This is a debate section, DEBATE.
You seriously think you debate. Plenty of people have tried debating with you and clearly winning the arguement but you always turn it into how right you are and how ignorant and ill-informed they are, same old lines. You will not admit to your failings and just keep playing the same self-righteous saviour of all things minority.

You in all your wisdom state as fact I HATE Muslims because I don’t approve of mass migration and do not support the wearing of a Burkha in public. Now I aaparently hate transgender men because I don’t want female privacy and choice eroded and point out the obvious risks associated with allowing any man claiming to be female in female areas. If those opinions in ithemselves define hate in your world then bully for you, but it is a very small and convenient world you live in.

What about all the victims worldwide, mainly women, of Islamic hate, hate that kills and controls, but ssshh we can’t mention that - it isn’t PC.

user104658 03-01-2018 10:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toy Soldier (Post 9761178)
More likely to get good contact with the prostate then NM, don't knock it until you've tried it. Those sausage fingers might have redefined your sex life.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vicky. (Post 9765695)
My husband always requests men for intimate exams.
See NM, Mr Vicky knows the score.

Marsh. 03-01-2018 10:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toy Soldier (Post 9761178)
More likely to get good contact with the prostate then NM, don't knock it until you've tried it. Those sausage fingers might have redefined your sex life.
What you must put your poor wife through. :nono:

Maru 04-01-2018 04:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vicky. (Post 9765426)
Definitely agree with this. Transition completed, ok.

However in a medical setting I really do still think that even transitioned transsexual people should not be sent if a certain sex is requested. Luckily the current law does have an exception for this. Just if it all gets changed..it does remove the rights of both women and men to a same sex (or oppiosite sex..I know a lot of men who request female doctors for anything to do with intimate exams) HCP.
I agree. Another reason, because even if they transition, fine... but what if they're not "passable"? Not to be rude, but some people would still see a man if certain features made it more obvious. It's just the way it is. Now, if people mean by transition, that they dress like the self-identifying gender, then that makes sense I guess because if you see dress/lots of make up, then you know a woman... but not only can be that difficult in a setting with uniforms, but then you run into that whole gender spectrum/gender conforming boogie man where you're not quite a girl, not quite a boy and then you may be a girl, but you dress like a boy? Or a boy dresses like a girl? It's just too much for me, it's like chasing your own tail :laugh: I'm all for doing whatever the hell I want, but put a checkbox on my form, "transgender OK?" I can check this? OK. Easy. Otherwise it's forcing the situation and needlessly pushing the doctor/nurse+patient into an uncomfortable confrontation and causing another one of these stupid articles to get printed in the papers.

Maru 04-01-2018 04:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toy Soldier (Post 9766824)
See NM, Mr Vicky knows the score.
Uh oh. Mine does too. Has he strayed from Team Vagina? :worry:

user104658 04-01-2018 05:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maru (Post 9767085)
Uh oh. Mine does too. Has he strayed from Team Vagina? :worry:
That's a bit backwards Maru. Just because me, your husband, Vicky's husband, Northern Monkey and Marsh like a large weather-worn finger in the butt, does not mean we aren't straight :nono:.

Maru 04-01-2018 05:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toy Soldier (Post 9767093)
That's a bit backwards Maru. Just because me, your husband, Vicky's husband, Northern Monkey and Marsh like a large weather-worn finger in the butt, does not mean we aren't straight :nono:.
Well as long as it's only Team Maru then it's OK. But I have pretty long, but quite slender fingers. It's those painterly/artist hands you know... more for fine grippage and charismatic fluid strokes... so maybe not so good for door #2, but maybe good for other creative outlets :smug:

It's a shame we can't self-exam, this thread would be so easy. I mean we do self-breast exams once per month (well, we should...) to check for lumps. If a penis stops working, it's pretty obvious. It's just a finger for you guys for a minute or two(?), but for the women's the doctor goes spelunking with an a double ice cream scoop for 10-15. I've never asked my husband about his anal spelunking... actually I'll ask him in the morning

Ammi 04-01-2018 06:05 AM
...just going back a bit in the thread, yeah I think that it would be 'perfect' if it was always possible for our wishes/preferences to be catered for..in an 'ideal world of NHS' as it were...but the NHS is struggling a bit in this country so that may not always be possible for the long-term future..?...I've had several procedures in hospital which have not been routine procedures and in all honesty, the gender of the person carrying them out hasn't even entered my thoughts..so I guess I have to think..would it be right for me to be 'selective' just because the procedure was a routine one, like a smear test..?...no I feel it would be wrong for me to feel like that because in an NHS where many are reluctant to be a part of it in their job/vocation in the current climate, I'm just thankful that there are those who still want to join and be a part of the care of us all...

... although there will always be some people who would abuse positions of trust in all walks of life, I do believe they are the very small minority so it's not something I could really occupy my thoughts with too much...if it were the thing that people didn't feel comfortable with transgender nursing staff then a vocation desperately needed could just be wasted.../sad...

Maru 04-01-2018 06:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ammi (Post 9767095)
...just going back a bit in the thread, yeah I think that it would be 'perfect' if it was always possible for our wishes/preferences to be catered for..in an 'ideal world of NHS' as it were...but the NHS is struggling a bit in this country so that may not always be possible for the long-term future..?...I've had several procedures in hospital which have not been routine procedures and in all honesty, the gender of the person carrying them out hasn't even entered my thoughts..so I guess I have to think..would it be right for me to be 'selective' just because the procedure was a routine one, like a smear test..?...no I feel it would be wrong for me to feel like that because in an NHS where many are reluctant to be a part of it in their job/vocation in the current climate, I'm just thankful that there are those who still want to join and be a part of the care of us all...

... although there will always be some people who would abuse positions of trust in all walks of life, I do believe they are the very small minority so it's not something I could really occupy my thoughts with too much...if it were the thing that people didn't feel comfortable with transgender nursing staff then a vocation desperately needed could just be wasted.../sad...
Do you have the liberty normally of changing doctors in the NHS? In the US, it's your job to search and find a physician, of which there's usually a wide network (especially in a metro). Maybe some types of insurance prefer you pick a primary care (like dental), but for many, you can change in-between PCPs without informing ins or even the prior office. And specialists are always chosen by you anyway and is your job to research. They may be chosen by the ins if your area/coverage is very limited. (That's odd though)

My grandmother is retired and yes, they do receive Medicare (govt-subsidized), but they also get private ins (their choosing) and sometimes there is a supplemental for what's called the "donut hole". The ins is usually quite flexible. Edit: Oh and we get a tax document at the end of the year, so it ends up being tax deductible (if medical costs exceed a certain percentage) since is automatically redrawn from your social security (from govt after retiring after 65), so that's nice too.

I think that is ideal, because you can pretty much mix and match your care. For example, if I were transgender, I could see a transgender PCP and then choose specialists according to expertise. In the progressive side of Houston, a lot of the LGBT folk are well-networked and so not uncommon to run into folk there running their own businesses and the community there pretty much supports them on their own without having to worry about the rest of the county. Free market really shines in this respect. We do not have state income tax and small business to chain ratio is 20:1/10:1 (maybe more o_O), just going by store facades. Chains are not as common as just everyday folk running a business and there are plenty of choices for pretty much everything in a city that spans 100-150 miles (massive sprawl), so plenty of opportunity for people to target niche markets since it is an entrepreneur friendly city... we're already a majority minority city, but forgot by what margin.

Edit: Anyway I can see where that would really impact someone's concept of the status quo and vice versa

DemolitionRed 04-01-2018 08:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vicky. (Post 9765695)
Thats not true. My husband always requests men for intimate exams. And male friends apparently ask for female ones and get them.
I don’t know about GP’s but hospitals are not gender specific. Best practice can be used for men or women but more often its used for women, especially around intimate care. I’m not saying best practice for men is never used but there are a lot more female nurses than male nurses so if a male patient asks for a male nurse and there is no male nurse working in that department, the hospital are not obliged to provide one.

Vicky. 04-01-2018 08:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DemolitionRed (Post 9767122)
I don’t know about GP’s but hospitals are not gender specific. Best practice can be used for men or women but more often its used for women, especially around intimate care. I’m not saying best practice for men is never used but there are a lot more female nurses than male nurses so if a male patient asks for a male nurse and there is no male nurse working in that department, the hospital are not obliged to provide one.
Oh I took your post to be meaning women can request same sex but men cannot at all.

Have never had an intimate exam done in a hospital (exception of giving birth obviously :laugh: ), nor has my husband. But clearly it IS possible to request a same sex practitioner as otherwise this would not have been noted as an admin error, it would have been stated that the right to request either sex was not possible for hospital examinations.

Either way though, the nurse in this case was clearly a dick to argue with the patient claiming their gender identity meant they were actually the opposite sex when the patient said to them that they had asked for a female. So woman was fine asking for a female person to do the exam. NHS made an error but things happen I guess. HCP was very wrong to argue with patient about something patient could see with their own eyes..and to have the mistaken belief that everyone subscribes to this silly idea that physical sex is not a real thing...

user104658 04-01-2018 08:42 AM
I genuinely think that in a professional medical setting, people should be viewing it as a job title rather than a gender anyway. It's more like a mechanic checking a car... It's very rarely comfortable being checked over in any way but you just do it and get on with it? :shrug:

I think it's fair enough, from a safety point of view, for there to be two staff present for certain procedures and for example to request a 2nd staff member with gender of choice to sit in. To be honest it would be a good idea for that to be standard. Other than that... Surely the most important thing is having the most qualified people for the job checking you over? I guess I see it as, when you step into a clinical setting, they are doctors / nurses. Not males / females / transgendered or whatever.

Vicky. 04-01-2018 08:47 AM
Well speaking personally I don't mind which sex does smears and such. If I am totally honest I prefer male people as they tend to be gentler from my experience..so I am a bit odd that way. But I don't think the decision should be taken away from others who DO want/need to chose. So many people have been abused. Some people can't have males touching them on religious grounds..and so on.

And this still doesn't change the fact that this nurse argued with the patient about it rather than accepting that they are NOT a female person, as has been requested. Which is a douche move, however you look at it.

Crimson Dynamo 04-01-2018 08:49 AM
i had a woman slice open my testicles and then sew it back and 2 others in the room at the time as I recall and it never occurred to me that it should be a bloke doing it.



One of the nurses was Irish and I was thinking about lodging a complaint there mind you

:suspect:


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