I'm sorry Maru, I'm sure it's my fault for being thick, by I still don't know what you're trying to say here re. gays.
Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't changing attitudes in society a sign that it is "fixable"? I.e. that it things change?
Are your musings on victim-narrative connected to gays as a group?
I thought we have fought hard for all changes in law that happened over the last 50 years or so, with the help of our straight alllies. So where's the victimhood?
I might have got it wrong so would appreciate your thoughts.

Did I? It is your thread about god fixing gayness, which implies somebody has to be unhappy about gayness in the first place, right? I didn't bring unhapiness to your thread, your thread is about unhappy gays, full stop.

Ok, then not society but environment, is that better? Environment which include home, school, work, neighbours.

The bottom line is people are born being gay, but they're not born being ashamed/unhappy about being gay. That they acquire from somewhere else. The world around them.

It's down to how you look at it I guess. (I don't think that angle is thick at all, 2S) Society for me is the last point of change that is affected by culture. It's usually hit&miss how laws/mantras/"movements"/etc effect how people interact, so I tend to see it as a passive change, not a direct one. i.e. It's not a "fixed" equation, like we plug in a couple of variables and everyone starts behaving differently, interacting in a healthier way, etc. There is this thought we can place in a middleman (like a school system) inbetween the individual who desires change and society in every instance to create the effect we want. I actually think it's down to exposure: more & more folk running into other kids/people who have come out of the closet earlier and earlier in their life. If those interactions are healthy and not force-fed, then that will tend to lead to progress I think... but if it's not done in a healthy manner, there will backlash. So I think it comes down to homosexual folk to being that first/second/third generation of role-models... not happy go-lucky narratives of "gay people good!1"... for instance, I heard plenty of the pro-Christian/anti-Satanism rhetoric growing up in the US and in Texas schools, but I seldom hear anyone quote a Bible and there's only been an increase in secularity ever since. (Hopefully I explained that well.)

If we wait on society to pick up all the burden, then changes will take way too long*(edit) I think.

Re: Victim-narrative relates to that above, but it's more to do with cultural trends (all peoples), not just LGBT folk. If more and more people are looking towards the external for the solution(s) to their problems, then they're not part of the solution. That will and has caused a deficit in positive role-models over time... for instance, higher suicide rates in males (lack of father figures don't help).

People are unhappy at a lot of things in life, work, money marriage...

I don't know anyone from my family, nor anyone from my synagogue who has the slightest thought that gay people are different and shouldn't be happy. I can't speak for people of all faiths, and not everyone in my own, but the consensus amongst Jews I know is that God doesn't make mistakes.

If you're going to kill a Frommer, best thing to use would be a pork chop.

what is mental is that for Christianity in the past a sure-fire career for a homosexual man was in the ministry

Right but the idea from religious people I've talked to in any depth about this (all Christian, admittedly) is that they generally argue that homosexuality (or at least homosexual acts) are a choice borne of free will, and that as God knowingly gave people free will, it's not God's mistake if someone "chooses" to be actively homosexual - it is their own.

I would add though that none of these people were "hateful" towards gay people or didn't want gay people to find happiness, more of a philosophical acceptance that it "is a sin" but that that's between that person and God and it's not other people's place to judge (as everyone sins to some degree, etc etc).

I've also had a iscussion with one person who was pondering whether maybe people were actually born gay, God might actually have chosen to make them gay, as some sort of Book of Job style "test" i.e. chose for some people to be born with strong homosexual urges to test their ability to resist those urges, as it's only the act - not the desire - that's sinful.

Which is an interesting(?) perspective... I suppose...

The reasons are pretty obvious for that to be fair. The man is attracted to other men and not to women. His religion tells him that he's not allowed to be with a man, but he doesn't WANT to be with a woman... but there is an expectation to be a husband and father and people are going to ask questions. But not if you're a priest - priests aren't supposed to be interested in men OR women - so it was historically a natural "hiding place" for gay men who didn't want people asking why they weren't interested in women. Though of course, repression inevitably leads to "scandal" which is, I believe, a large part of the reason that Protestantism started allowing their "holy men" to have a wife / family, to make it a more "normal" path through life rather than a huge alternative lifestyle decision.

That sounds unbelievably cruel, who would want to follow a god like that?

Also, what is the story with all this "testing of faith"? I never understood why it would be so important to god to want people to blindly believe he exist? Why?

i have been thinking about that the last few days and my thinking is that they joined the clergy to innitially supress those homosexual thoughts...

yes id imagine some did and some thought it a way to avoid persecution. As for the catholic ones , a lot thought it a great way to get access to boys and use the god bolloxio in their abuse

You're getting homosexuality and paedophilia mixed up there LT. That's pretty offensive. Little girls were also abused by these paedophile priests

I don't know, compared to the actual content of the Book of Job it's pretty easy-going :joker:. It's so grim :umm2:

No i am not (although yes it reads like that) I mean a lot of paedos not a lot of gay people targetted catholic priest jobs

Oh ok, that's fair enough. I did think when I was younger that priests became paedophiles because of the weird sexual repressions and thinking kids would keep quiet etc but I've changed my mind about that now and yeah I agree it probably just looked like a Utopian existence to a paedophile

Personally no but I have a friend who was “healed” by God and turned straight

So it is possible then...with some mind control?