Originally Posted by bitontheslide (Post 10873394)

why stop at life during pregnancy, why bother having hospitals at all, because the people would be dead without treatment ..... so no need to bother

I despair .....

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier (Post 10873402)

To be fair I think that's an exaggeration, I do understand the argument that a 1st/2nd trimester fetus is clearly a very DIFFERENT form of life to an "active" human life. I just think it's undeniable that a fetus is "alive", by pretty much every measure of the definition of "life". I know it's a hard to swallow position, but I'm OK with abortion and OK with abortion being the process of ending a human life. That's just the warts'n'all truth, I don't believe in sanitizing the narrative for the sake of comfort.

Originally Posted by bitontheslide (Post 10873401)

i'm referring to the ridiculous argument that a abortion is fine on a premature baby because it wouldn't survive without medical attention ... the same applies to many living/born animals that don't receive specialised care

Originally Posted by bitontheslide (Post 10873401)

i'm referring to the ridiculous argument that a abortion is fine on a premature baby because it wouldn't survive without medical attention ... the same applies to many living animals that don't receive specialised care

Originally Posted by bitontheslide (Post 10873403)

that's why the time limits are under constant review though. As our medical expertise improves, viability also improves which contracts the window for an abortion

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper (Post 10873407)

it's also largely none of my business because women's healthcare is the business of women, not me.

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier (Post 10873414)

I don't know if I agree with that if you're being supportive of women's rights. "Women's rights are none of my business because I'm a man" is sort of akin to saying "BLM is none of my business because I'm not black". Most of the policy makers are blokes, and half of the female ones are infused with patriarchal values... us fellers who are supportive of the right to choose shouldn't side-step the issue as none of our business, because the men who are AGAINST abortion sure as **** aren't going to :laugh:.

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier (Post 10873414)

I don't know if I agree with that if you're being supportive of women's rights. "Women's rights are none of my business because I'm a man" is sort of akin to saying "BLM is none of my business because I'm not black". Most of the policy makers are blokes, and half of the female ones are infused with patriarchal values... us fellers who are supportive of the right to choose shouldn't side-step the issue as none of our business, because the men who are AGAINST abortion sure as **** aren't going to :laugh:.

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper (Post 10873428)

It's not really the same though is it? Womens healthcare and a women's right to choose exist, and should be between her and her doctor, so unless that right is threatened, then it's factually none of my business. If that right was taken away, or threatened, then it becomes all of our business in the same way that BLM is about people not having the same rights or being treated equally.

Originally Posted by Niamh. (Post 10873432)

And I truly believe that if it was men who had babies it would be an issue between them and their Doctor automatically

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper (Post 10873441)

Absolutely no doubt about it, maybe if your lot had not gone scrumping in the garden of eden things would have been different :smug:

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier (Post 10873385)

I said that calling a 2nd trimester fetus "a bundle of cells" is a pretty (or white) lie used to make abortion easier/more palateable. That's what it is. I'm not backpedaling - I still think the same - I think some people are worried that these opinions will be used by pro-lifers to discourage abortion, which they might be, but I don't and never will agree with manipulating the narrative to suit the outcome.

Taking this and making it into "How dare you call me a liar!!" is just utterly bizarre... and I'm not sure how you can ever engage in an open debate if you think that everyone who thinks your opinion is incorrect is "calling you a liar". You've gotten emotional and aggressive here with really little if any reason, I personally have absolutely ZERO time for it right now, I'm not here for nor have I ever been part of any "TiBB wars" so keep that where it belongs please Dezzy. If you can't keep the debate civilized I have no idea why you're doing it at all, it seems exhausting.



So to ask a question... is a parasitic organism (let's say a tapeworm) alive? By your definition it is not alive - it cannot support itself without a host body to feed off of. But that seems to me to be an odd suggestion, I don't know many people who would argue that parasites are not alive. I suppose that's also down to opinion though. I strongly disagree?



I actually have a relatively wide knowledge of issues surrounding pregnancy and gestation that I didn't "google last night", but I have little reason nor desire to share those, because it's not really relevant. I'm not trying to "win" or "make anything work". I'm just debating, I'm not accusing you of anything, calling you a liar, or expecting anything other than for people to share their own opinions... as is the purpose of debate. I'm not interested whatsoever in this paranoid victim-narrative nonsense, kindly keep it away. Or I can just not engage at all, I suppose. Probably the better option?

Or I guess, we can play if you want, but not 'til the kids are back at school, I just don't have the time or energy :laugh:.

Originally Posted by bitontheslide (Post 10873401)

i'm referring to the ridiculous argument that a abortion is fine on a premature baby because it wouldn't survive without medical attention ... the same applies to many living/born animals that don't receive specialised care

Originally Posted by Niamh. (Post 10873432)

And I truly believe that if it was men who had babies it would be an issue between them and their Doctor automatically

Originally Posted by Zizu (Post 10873470)

I think our ‘age’ should be calculated from 9 months before we pop out .. you can still celebrate the ‘birthday’


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Originally Posted by Dezzy (Post 10873478)

I think I said it earlier in the thread but if men gave birth, the whole pro-life vs pro-choice debate wouldn't exist.

Abortion would be seen differently if it was men that bore the children.

Originally Posted by Dezzy (Post 10873478)

I think I said it earlier in the thread but if men gave birth, the whole pro-life vs pro-choice debate wouldn't exist.

Abortion would be seen differently if it was men that bore the children.

Originally Posted by Kizzy (Post 10873487)

Odd thing to say this dezzy, the vessel isn't the issue is it?
Effectively who has the child has no baring on the opinion as to what is right or wrong for the foetus imo.

Originally Posted by Dezzy (Post 10873456)

Yeah, I'm not being drawn into the goading. You know what you're doing.

Originally Posted by Dezzy (Post 10873479)

Life doesn't begin at conception, regardless of everything, I think that's something most of us can agree on.

Originally Posted by Dezzy (Post 10873473)

Not what I'm saying but go off sis.



There's a difference between a typical premature baby that's born 30+ weeks into the pregnancy (8/10 babies are apparently premature in some way or another) and a fetus that's birthed at 22 weeks. The latter cannot survive without a lot of medical attention and plain luck and that's not even considering any permanent health concerns that would spring from such an early birth if the fetus survives.



I remember seeing a video a few weeks ago of a chicken embryo being grown in an egg that was chopped in half, and it grew from an embryo all the way to a fully fledged chick but a situation like that is so improbable that it just doesn't make sense to classify life starting at any other point then birth.



Maybe when technology advances to the point where fetuses in early stages can survive outside of the womb with high rates of survival, I'll change my mind but at the moment, it's dangerous to make out that a fetus at 22 weeks is a life when more often than not, it wouldn't be able to live outside of the womb because it's not ready to truly be alive yet.