I agree with you, but I'm not sure what your point is? Everyone is exploited, so why should we worry about a bit more? I disagree fundamentally. I don't think wage-slavery exploitation is OK either but that's not what the thread is about.

I don't have an issue with the women who are darts walk on girls so the question is loaded. If the women on stage are dressing how they want to dress because they like it and feel good then that's great. If they're doing it to sell more records to men twice their age then I find it marginally depressing; but I doubt that's their core fanbase. Apparently there's still some confusion about who and what I have an issue with here; it's not women making money or women showing skin.

50 year old men "appreciating" women half their age may be "normal" in the sense that it seems like a hell of a lot of men do it and are defensive of it but it's neither inevitable nor aspirational (how defensive the middle age+ men on here are about the whole issue is ... sure something :umm2: ).

The fact that it's commoditised and commercialised for sports shows? Yes I stand by all of the above. Gross/letching/ogling etc. there's no other way to describe it and -- as TiBB is so fond of reminding everyone -- it's not OK to go around telling people how they should and shouldn't think. Pls respect my opinion that it's disgusting :hee:.

As a final thought? Your argument that "no one gets hurt" by the pervasive objectification of women in society - and yes tbh young people in general in society (objectification of young men in for example Hollywood is rife too) - is extremely naive and demonstrably false. A lot of people get hurt. In lots of different ways. Mostly women, mostly teens/young adults, sooo it's unsurprising that as usual no one really cares and happily trots off to mindlessly drift through their banal evening with nary a thought bothering them beyond what's for dinner.

I almost envy it, really.

QB/TS Goody, I'm not 50 yet. Yay! You can spew all you want about gross pervy smelly old fat gammon gits but if anyone participates in the thread and disagrees with your opinion they are being defensive? Okay. :joker:

Do you not find a younger attractive woman nice to look at? Why not?

Do you automatically think that those that do are ‘perving’ and are actually ‘turned on’ - which couldn’t be further from the truth personally. There is a huge difference between simply appreciating a woman’s assets and being sexually aroused. Can you describe to me how you assume all these men you have observed are actually ogling and letching and want to have their ‘hand in their pants’, as you say?
What are they doing? Are they wriggling in their seats with massive hard - ons? Then I can look out for it the next time I go to one of my classic car events because seemingly I’ve been oblivious.
By the way, I was specifically referring to the women at sports events, (not the more damaging issues of objectification) how exactly are they being hurt?

Once you hit 50 as a WHITE male you turn into a gammon, a perve, smelly, someone who ogles younger women, a letch.....sorry if you just enjoy watching working class darts but its just something that comes with the territory, same with football, you tend to go home and beat your partner if your side loses, I have told Mr C he needs to do better as he doesn't seem to be following any of these rules

The endless, endless conflation of simply "finding women attractive" and "objectifying and commodifying women".

They're not the same thing.

If people can't even get their head around that basic concept, I'm not surprised the rest isn't making sense.

Not automatically - only if you actually do those things :). It's not inevitable. Not everyone has rock bottom standards and expectations.

Is this because I pointed out the actual known fact that domestic violence incidences increase on "big match weekends"? Something that's known and well understood by professionals who work with victims of domestic violence? Are you deliberately misrepresenting that and poo-pooing away actual, verified, statistical fact for TiBB points Cherie? Classy stuff.

I would hazard a guess that men who beat up their partners dont actually need a particular excuse..... its not like they go home and think ooo we won today will give it a miss..... what is not classy is looking down your nose at working class people and stereotying them at every opportunity

I will be blunt about this, so if I offend anyone then fair enough.

Men and women (even if they're as old as 90) are more likely to find people in their twenties and thirties more attractive than someone that's 50/60 years old.

That's just how Human Beings are wired in general, basically nature taking it's course.

7 pages in and no one is batting for quantum soldier toy boy

rather says it all...

:skull:

Isn't it telling when some people believe so strongly that the point and purpose of posting on a forum, is to get as many people patting them on the back as possible. Telling and tragic.

I get where he's coming from :shrug:

I'm choosing to believe that there are a few people who agree with the gist of the message, just not my... Umm... Methods of engagement...

Kate did you also not call Pete Waterman the steam rail pop guy a hero?

What's up with Pete Waterman?

What is glaringly obvious to me is we have all missed the point of the walk on girls..

We must look at who the darts world is trying to draw to the game, and I believe we have the darts poster boy, Luke luttler who isnt even 18 yet. So for me darts are trying to get a younger audience, therefore, these 36 year old milf, walk on girls are there for the horny teenagers to ogle , in an effort to draw the closer to the sport..

You're not a genius. You're not always right. Being insulting doesn't do anything to make your point.

[emoji106]

Now, you see, I can accept that you may be right there (I don't know enough about darts to say if they're trying to attract younger players and a younger fan base - so I'll accept that as true if people interested in the sport are saying that's the case).

The overall point doesn't change though. If they need to use "you'll get to walk on with the sexy ladies!" to advertise draw a younger demographic to the sport, instead of just the merits of the game itself, then that's gross gutter-capitalism. It's straight out of some smokey 80's ad exec room. "If the product doesn't stand on its own two feet, it can stand on these boobies!"

And the sad thing is, the other thing I've learned from some of the more level-headed posts on this thread if they're correct.. Is that it isn't even needed. The sport has been drawing a new audience just fine without this. Totally unnecessary, probably the brainchild of a few old farts near the top and no one had the gumption to stand up to their completely outdated "great idea". If anything, if they're trying to further legitimise darts as a serious sport for serious young sports people, this does the exact opposite. Fires it right back into the realm of beer bellies and slippy pub floors. The impression that people have not been happy at all that I, as a non fan, have of the sport. It's doing nowt to improve the image.

All that said - one thing your post doesn't explain if you're right - is why it's only being done for the seniors game. Is that the one that's going to draw in the young lads?

No one is always right, and I agree on the second point too, I'd obviously not do it to the extent I do here anywhere but on this sort of forum, but in my defense, that's because of countless years of experience that very few people on this forum have any interest whatsoever in the point being made. So it's not to make a point. In this case, it's simply to express my very real disgust at a certain objectifying mindset. I'm not trying to change opinions on here, most days I've no particular time for battering my head against a brick wall.

If you want some real irony - I'm actually passingly decent at throwing a few darts and my older sister's been in a mixed pub league since she was 20 (so over 20 years) :joker:

They don't have walk on girls though :hee:

Yeah, see that's my issue with it. It must feel a bit **** for your sister to be trying to be taken seriously as a female player while watching the only women on "the big stage" being paraded around the men like decorations

What do you mean, the only women on the big stage.?

I could name about 5 top flight female darts players who can mix it with the men, and have done for about 5 years now.

That's still very few tbf Parm. I just don't like it in general in sports when women are already mocked and looked down on.. Again, not specifically with Darts, just generally

Thats not true though, womens darts is very popular and they are televised and women have been playing with men for years now Fallon Sherrock is probably the stand out but there are more up and coming

It's popular ish. I stand by my point that walk on girls do female players a dis service in being taken seriously, as do ring girls in UFC. Agree with me or disagree, your choice but I firmly believe that to be true regardless :shrug:

I agree. But I don't think every man who likes to see the walk on girls is a perverted, beer-swilling wife beater as has been suggested on this thread.

But you could say the same for cheerleaders or dancers for a artist, each to their own, if they are happy doing it, I dont think people look at these women and compare them to women in sport at least I dont, they are separate entities

Even without the walk on girls there are still pom pom girls on the stage dancing as the darts players walk on these are trained dancers who are being paid to do what they love I guess

add white to that....:laugh: gammon only refers to white men we all know that

I'm not even going down that road, for me it's definitely about sports and how it really doesn't help female sports in general. It just gives more leverage to those with the opinion that women in sport don't belong unless they're there for men's amusement

Oh yes... Gammon. One of the permitted racist slurs.

Geez, just have a read off comments on YouTube or Twitter to see that isn't true.

Cheerleaders are dancers and pretty athletic and also have men on their squads a lot of times. So at least they're doing more than just lookimg nice.

If you think female athletes are demeaned or looked down on because other women choose to do something else with their lives, then it’s you who has that view of female athletes, you can guarantee the vast majority of people who see a walk on girl, aren’t thinking that the women players should be doing that instead

I do agree... But I think it might be an overreaction to say it cheapens women in sport. A womens rugby team was recently required to be photographed in lingerie to raise some money for the club. I thought that was far more sexist than getting someone whose only legally chargeable skill is walking in front of some darts players.

No I certainly don't have that view of female athletes.

Oh yeah I saw that. Awful

Irritating to see a gay man telling women what they should be thinking. Especially in view of your support of trans women's rights.

You’re literally saying it cheapens women and demeans the female athletes, so yes, you do have that view, I don’t, do I think there needs to be ring girls? No, do I think their presence lessens the legitimacy of female athletes or puts a bad image on them? Again, no, but you seem to and that’s not very girl power of you

No one mentioned wife beating in relation to this thread at all until Cherie brought up "match day" domestic violence, which I'd mentioned in another thread, weeks ago, and is a very real and well understood issue that every domestic violence service and police force in the country is well aware of. I have no idea why people are so keen to dismiss it as untrue. It just is, factually, real. Clearly it caught in Cherie's throat at the time and it was brought up here weeks later in a totally different context, you'd have to ask her for the reason for that.

Men enjoying ogling women half their age is gross, organisations exploiting the fact that they do for advertising/profit is 10x more gross. I'm not going to change my opinion on either of those things. And they do play into a general public mindset that is ultimately damaging. There's ample evidence that it isn't "harmless".

Slightly baity because it'll take the whole thing right off topic but you're simply wrong. Gammon is a term that makes people uncomfortable and that's why I use it when I use it. I'm well aware that the issue is male objectification if women, not "teh white men", for example there's a massive problem with males in Muslim communities and their attitudes towards women and girls, and the way they view western women and girls (extreme objectification and dehumanisation plays heavily into the issue of grooming gangs, for example). I've said all of this, clearly and openly, in threads on those topics but you fairly consistently ignore those posts and misrepresented me as "only having an issue with white men" so this isn't unusual Cherie. As you were.

I'm only going to take one final swipe at this because again, brick wall, Liam simply doesn't understand the distinction -- this (none of this) has anything at all to do with the choices being made by women.

I dont read comments people love to be nasty on social media just because they can, after seeing what can happen to women i.e Afghanistan I more than welcome women being able to do whatever they want given it is with their own free will, fashion models are only hired if the look nice and that goes for both men and women, you wont see too many adverts with people with facial disfigurements unless it is to raise awareness or something, personally I think the walk on girls are being brought back to promote betting rather than anything else

Well, you're not female Liam so you wouldn't really understand what women have to deal with on an ongoing basis from men. You really think you telling me I'm not for "girl power " is some sort of goal for you? [emoji38] um OK I guess, boo for me

Why do you have so many issues with sports with working class roots, you do not follow sport so jog on maybe?