USA and Turkey are condemning the attacks too. Israel are losing allies fast. Not sure if it'll make any difference to their embargo though.

Arista, there is regular aid of the size that the convoy had being pumped into palestine through the correct channels. God knows who came up with the idea for this because it seems to be drummed up by students from ex-polys.

Sure
These Ships had MP's on them
and Health Foods needed urgent.


Next time
Turkey Warships can back them.
Then it will be a Big War.


http://news.sky.com/sky-news/content...1/15641860.jpg

You just constantly walk into 'fail' and here again is just another 'open-ended insinuation' that makes no sense:

First, we already know that plenty of inspected boats come and go with all kinds of illegal weapons, people, contraband.
THIS IS HOW ITS DONE.
This is why they inspect boats leaving AND ARRIVING because its not unusual they get past the 'leaving' inspections.
IF we used your thinking then we would just stop inspecting arrivals?
Hey.. they were inspected leaving!
Dumb.

The other problem is that you 'seem' to be saying you believe they absolutely knew there were no weapons or terrorists on this boat.
OK.
So it would seem the only explanation left is that you think they were just attacking the people onboard.
really?
You actually think that is what they were doing - just attacking the boats because.. vengeance or something?
Grow up.
You do NOT think that.

Oh.. I have no doubt they boarded because they believed they would arrest a few and find some weapons yes,
but,
obviously they were not just cruising waters looking to 'pirate attack' and obviously they DO NOT want this bad press.

btw.. take a look at the video taken from BOTH sides in this - it becomes a whole helluva lot more obvious:
- They are attacked before they hit the ground and after and actually take TOO LONG before they start shooting.
Its only when two of their guys are being HORRIFICALLY murdered they have no choice but to shoot at the murderers.
Arguably, some take TOO LONG to fire on the murderers.

I think your conspiracy theory is something you don't believe in. You are just saying things you hope gets sympathy and political points for what 'side' you think you should take.
Right?

Nope as I often tell you, its not often you are right but you are Wrong again.

Yes plenty of boats do come and go and pick up illicit cargoes, but not while under satellite surveillance, the Yanks do give live feed satellite data to allies and Israel is a big ally.

The Israelis do not play by the rules as they have shown time and again, they went in to seize the boats and take them to Ashdod where the cargo would have been destroyed.

If you believe the Israelis didnt know the exact contents of the cargo of each of the SIX vessels then you totally underestimate Israeli intelligence.

The Israelis decided to storm the boats outside of territorial waters. knowing they would take some criticism for it, but not giving a damn because they dont care about condemnation, look at the outrages they have committed over the last 20 years.

The troops storming the ships were too slow in approaching by helicopter and too slow rappelling down to the boats that is why an effective defence albeit by primitive weapons in the hands of civilians was able to be enacted.

Losing the initiative of their assault they then had to open fire to regain the initiative. If you take that to mean defend themselves, then fine read that as you will.

Two of their guys being horrifically murdered? Where did you dig that nugget from? The Israeli casualties amounted to seven injured commandos. That is all no dead.

I think you have been watching different videos than the rest of the world seeing as the UN has condemned the operation. The US and UK have also done so. In fact most of the world has except for the Israelis themselves, you and a handful of other misguided people.

As for the fail you say I walked into. Nah just you typing that garbage shows what a fail you are.

Incidentally what you class as a conspiracy theory - the Israelis knowing that the cargos were simply humanitarian aid. I believe totally, I know the US, UK and Israeli intelligence agencies share information. They probably did this time round. I also never underestimate the abilities of Mossad.

Now its time for Uncle Terry to educate you again by way of a little bit of proof.


From the UN's own website:
Now I really am sorry to remove your rose tinted glasses me old mate but you really need to get your head out of your ass.

The Israeli commandos who stormed the ship did have non lethal weapons and if the operation had been properly organised and led then they might not have needed to use live arms:

Exactly.
You only need to see the way they are swinging those pipes to see an attempted murder,
and,
the ONLY reason the horrific bludgeoning (what a way to die) only stopped because they finally put a bullet in the sickos.


Right - so just to be clear you believe they were on those ships to murder people and stop food from getting to poor people?
Just be clear.
Say it.
Stop 'insinuating and talking around it and just say it outright?
Then stop and realize how stupid that sounds.

No the assualting force also had non lethal weapons, so resorting to live rounds was the last option but as often happens with Israeli operations they were allowed to resort to them before all other options had been exhausted.

I take it you have never had rubber bullets fired at you, nor been in an area where CS or similar has been used? Nor been shot and wounded?



No I never said they went into kill people. The Israeli forces like to strike hard and fast, gaining the upper hand ideally with minimal casualties. They are briefed to use aggression and speed to gain the initiative, however as soon as any of their operations start to stall, especially when using non lethal tactics they always resort to the use of live rounds in order to regain the initiative and not lose the momentim of their attacks.

Believe it or not they have been criticised at the UN for it many many times.

I see you have dropped your argument now of them defending their territory, not being guilty of piracy on the high seas, etc.

Please dont try to put words into my text, it wont work. It only shows how weak your argument is.

Would you like fries with that portion of truth?

Well then why don't you say what you think they were doing?
Was it to steal from them as 'pirates' would?
To murder people?
This was what you first suggested. So what do you accuse them of doing here?

No you didn't see that. I have no doubt they did this because they believed there was a threat to their country.
Whether that was straight-up weapons or cash or terrorists or whatever combination.

I have to help you. You first call them 'pirates' and 'murderers' and then 'imply' there is no other explanation,
Then you 'talk around' some insinuations.
Then you 'dont not admit you were wrong'.

So just come out and say what you really think they were doing captain self-pwnage?

They assaulted ships on the high seas outside of their territorial waters without legal intent, to take command without consent of the owners of said ships that makes them pirates.

They resorted to the use of lethal force in pursuit of this aim, even though they were also equipped with non lethal weapons. By using lethal force to obtain an illegal aim, that makes them murderers.

They may have been under the illusion they were operating within the law, they may have thought the activists on the vessels would simply surrender, that doesnt matter.

Same as if a burglar broke into your house armed with a knife and gun, threatened you with the knife you fought back and he then shot you dead, in the UK they would start with a murder charge.

If they had waited until the boats had actually crossed into their territory, same action same result, a lot less criticism.

The Israelis simply wanted to ensure their illegal blockade wasnt broken, full stop.

What part are you still having difficulty understanding, EL?

No it doesn't.
IF they believed there was an incoming terrorist threat and believing it was aimed at its country then you bet they can go stop them.

No it does not.
You are such a phony because there is NO WAY you would be saying this in any other scenario.
First I'm genuinely shocked those 2 Israelis survived after seeing the horrific metal bar destruction,
and,
there is no doubt about this whatsoever - when you have microsecond and every single blow coming down is a 'death blow' you must immediately STOP the attacker.
You DO NOT do anything else.

IF you saw this EXACT scenario happening in downtown London you would NEVER say they ought to have resorted to tasers or rubber bullets and YOU would actually criticise them for taking TOO LONG to stop the raining death blows.


Yes it definitely does matter. intent is 9/10s of the law. Of course it matters. Its the 'debate' we are having too.

It would not be a 'murder charge' (notice the sneaky little ways you use words you wimp lol),
but,
No, of course not. It would only be 'murder' IF you were certain they were no longer a threat and then you killed them.

Here again shows your total insincerity because IF you saw a crook breaking into a neighbours car.
IF you then ran over to stop him.
IF that crook them pulled out a metal bar and began smashing your head in...

...you would be OUTRAGED if the police did anything less than immediately stop the smashing blows on your head with the fastest and most effective immediate way.
You would NEVER apologize for 'commandeering' the man on the public street and you would actually be INFURIATED if the police did not do anything but instantly fire on the crook before that 6th blow.. 7th blow... killed you.

It is not 'illegal' and they can do what they want.
I don't even say I like it but Israel gets to make their own laws about their own country.
Period.
What are YOU confused about?
They are not allowed in and so they stopped them.
Its very simple.

I know what I saw and the folks on the boat were lynching the Israeli troops, to death

there was NO other option for the soldiers

I have seen many attacks on people around the world and I know when people aim for death, the folks on that boat were in for the kill.

politics aside, they wanted to kill the soldiers

Ok LT,you know what you saw ,you saw the Israeli troops being lynched to death,so how many of them died and how many casualties did they have?

I just don't trust a story when we are only allowed info from one side.Israel could be right,this could have been a flotilla of Iranians pretending to be British,Irish,German,french etc intent on committing murder.It wouldn't be the first time a nation made illegal copies of other nations passports to carry out murder.

You are correct,there is regular aid the size of the convoy getting through to Palestine,the problem is ,its not enough hence the reason the UN are saying there is a humanitarian crisis in Palestine.So you are wrong to say its being "pumped "in.
I really don't know what comes under the category of Weapons of mass destruction ,but seriously cement and pasta????

The more I'm watching the videos (which includes some footage from both sides) the more it just becomes very obvious it was a straight-up lynch mob and there is absolutely no doubt it was for full-on murder.

If anything I say the Israelis could not have responded 1 second later than they did and the murder muslims on board are lucky more of them did not get killed.

YES... I will still want to see more information but at this time its becoming very obvious who the murderers are.

One thing I WILL reject from the Israeli argument (and its unnecessary) is showing pocket knives as if catching weapons.
No.
Everyone I know who is working on a ship owns a pocket knife and its not strange to have even large knives carrying cargo, boxes, undoubtedly plenty of ropes etc.
However,
That is hardly as important as the real problem of PEOPLE STABBING THEM WITH KNIVES IMMEDIATELY.

I am no fan of Israel but this time around, the more I see the more I have to say they were in the right here.

*btw.. I do think any and all 'normal passengers' who were not involved and were part of the team SHOULD be released as soon as possible. It does appear that IS what they Israelis are doing.

I seriously don't know who is right and who is wrong.

You lost the argument several posts ago, there is no need to try calling me names again.

The point being the Israelis were carrying out the illegal actions by attempting to take control of several ships that were outside of their waters, What part of that are you still failing to grasp?

Lynching them to death? So how many dead Israelis were carried off any of the vessels?


The knives shown by the Israeli spokespeople were all pocket knifes or kitchen knives, not the most effective weapons.

Incidentally one daft question you ever tried to lynch a man who is wearing Combat Body armour and a kevlar helmet? Trust me on this one I have experience of being hit with batons while wearing that sort of kit and being a person inflicting the beating. It would take more than a couple of minutes, if the person on the receiving end is a combat soldier who has trained for this sort of eventuality.

The Commandos used during the assault are extremely well trained and most will have gone in and kicked the crap out of palestinians before.

One other point if the Israelis are so squeaky clean in your eyes how come the UK, The US, the UN, and Uncle Tom Cobley and all, all condemned the operation?

Answer me that one question without the usual insults, flying off at a tangent or your usual avoidance. Bet you cant.

Once again - it is NOT illegal.

They were not pirates or murderers and I see you have once again done your '..not not admitting you were not wrong..' song and dance.

The good thing about this was Israel releasing video from both sides. It did not take long before public opinion swayed a helluva lot more over to their side of things.

Meanwhile we will all pretend we think these boats are sincerely interested in just helping the poor when we know full well the whole thing is a big pretense, publicity stunt, FU to Israel and for the purpose of provoking this kind of thing for political hay.

And again you dance around the question. How come then that the attack and murders have been internationally condemned. That is not only by the Turkish, the UK, the Egyptians, the US, the list goes on and on, lets not forget the UN?

Would you like to slate them all individually or just in one big group?

You keep 'pwning yourself' and the more you do these desperate little word and argument games the worse it is for you.

Look - lets pretend the UN does define this yeah?
Ok.
Then by the authority of YOUR CHOOSING they are not pirates and they are not murderers.
Not according to the UN.
So since YOUR AUTHORITY of choice does not call this piracy or murder then why do you?

Now realistically, it doesn't matter if a body of Muslim nations creates some resolution 'condemning attacks'.
That doesn't make it so.

btw.. more new video out and there again pretty damning stuff for the 'peaceful protesters' who drop a stun grenade in the Israeli boat.

Just as I said at the beginning - these stories always start as 'one is as bad as the other',
but,
as more comes in you too often find out it was Muslim Jihadist trying to kill and murder and who initiate the crimes,
and,
then use ploys and rhetoric to try and get 'victim status' and vilify their victims.

Yeah thats why Israel is releasing or by now has released ALL of the activists without charges.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog...-live-coverage

The stun grenades were taken from commandos. Dropping them onto an Israeli gunboat would be a method to defend oneself.

As would throwing assualting commandos overboard, a boat taken off the operation to pick up their own men is one less boat attacking.

As for the UN condemning the assaults, if you scroll back through the thread you will find references to that.(If you click on the words in blue on posts it will open another window on your computer with real information on it - aint technology great)

We were not debating whether or not any of the remaining activists can be arrested or held or charged with anything.

Your response should have been "Yeah.. that is why none of the Israelis are being charged with Piracy or Murder".



Yes, I told you that.
The UN isn't Israel's authority and there is no real legal or practical meaning to a group of anti-israel Muslim nations creating a 'statement' condemning attacks.
Just as meaningless is other nations 'supporting' such a thing (which also can mean different things),
but,
the problem for you is that they are not charging Israel with 'Piracy' or 'Murder'.

Yes, firing bullets into the chest of the attackers is simply a way to prevent them from landing more blows with pipes.

No the point I was making is that if the activists were big bad ass terrorists as you make out then Israel would have the odd token arrest or even a mock trial.

The UN doesnt charge other countries with anything I could give you a link to read up on the UN and its powers if you would like to learn about it.

However Turkey has called for the planners and authorisers of the mission, the commandos who opened fire to be tried for a long list of crimes, does that count?




Err once again you are wrong you didnt inform me or anyone else.

Arista was the first to mention it openly in post #49, your first post was #73 and it didnt mention it. In post #118 I referred back to the fact it had been included in a link used by the OP.

Could I ask if you are smoking or snorting something you didnt get over the counter of your local chemist? The reason I ask is your posts on this subject do not seem to be in touch with reality.

Incidentally the US UK and the UN are not Muslim led or run, not in this reality.

Mmm.. no you were saying they were pirates and terrorists and cited the UN as your validating source,
yet,
the UN hasn't called them this. Not that the UN is any authority but you think they are.

I would say that the criminals in this won't be having any trials anywhere. All 9 of them are being shipped back in boxes.

Oh shut the hell up you big woman's blouse. How annoying.

YOUR link explains how this 'condemnation' was written up by a body of Muslim nations.
I then explain how the other nations supporting that statement is also meaningless.
It is nothing but political shows and positioning but is not a meaningful thing in an real or practical sense of anything.

But even MPs have an agenda and this was a huge stunt to pull that off and it worked. MPs aren't all about the right and Israel are only defending their own kind and doing it well.

If Israel open the blockade to Gaza who is going to save them from the suicide bombers coming through and the coming and going of other activity that is a threat to the west? The blockade is there for a reason and the UN are only responding to global pressure. If Israel were completely fascist in this light they would be bombing the hell out of their neighbours from Egypt to other states but it's quite apparent that they are only looking after their own country.

Aid is always going into Gaza on a regular basis. The only people complaining are charity workers who have donators and investors to please, most of them from an Islamic persuasion, persuading another revolt against Jews as they've been told from birth that Jews are evil and so are Christians according to Islam.

Stop the Saudi families and Iran from giving Hamas military ammunition and this all ends. Remove oil from the equation and it won't last beyond a weekend.