rubbish. its the false claimants , the lazy , workless, demotivated fops who milk the benefits who are effectively stelaing money from the disabled, the sick and elderly and from the tax payers. these lazy bums have always got some pitiful excuse, well to hell with their excuses get the money off them and send them to work. then use the saved welfare benefits to pay the disabled and elderly more

I totally disagree,this is the rhetoric that is used to try to justify the persecution of those who are the weakest,allowing the demonisation of those on benefits to be totally exaggerrated as to how many are wrongly claiming them.

I said earlier, the only facts presented in TV programmes on these issues always say that the benefits believed to be being wrongly or fraudulently claimed amount to 0.8% of the total claimants.
Where is your evidence that is wrong, what figures have you got that say different.

You actually do the sick and disabled and most vulnerable a massive injustice in overstating the problem.
As to the welfare/benfit issues,the truth is little can or should be done as to cutting them becasue really the bulk of the spending on benefits is on pensions, that cannot be touched really.

I don't normally go into saying someone is talking rubbish as I try to take on board what others say even if I disagree with them, however from all I have got involved with these last few years as to the sick and disabled,I have been appalled at their treatment by this govt. as to their benefits.

One of us is likely talking rubbish certainly but it for sure I feel is not me and I am sorry to take that line.
However I will always look at supporting the sick and disabled,not follow like a sheep the media demonisation of them and add to the exaggerration of using them as scapegoats for the UKs ills.

Yes I'd like to see these stats too.

:shrug::shrug::shrug::joker:

Well, when you attend the doctor's to have your eyes put back into their orbits Niall, ask him to check your vision, your sensory perception, and your cognitive processes, because if you can read my post then misconstrue what I wrote to the extent that you conclude that my 'claim; ' is 'spurious' and that I am 'blaming the poor' in any way at all, there is something seriously wrong with you.

I am defending the poor and the needy, and condemning the fraudulent and greedy. And what is more; I know that my command of the English language is sufficient that only the prejudiced, politically blinkered can fail to understand what I am writing.

Your response is so, so, typical of Left Wing socialists, who are so very bitter and angry at the world because of their own personal issues – often subconscious and deeply buried – that they are in a perpetually defensive mode, coiled, tense, waiting to pounce aggressively and irrationally, on any one who they feel threatened by, or whose views they perceive, or wrongly perceive as not identically fitting in with their own skewed ideologies.

There is no fault in what I write, only in your perception, and you really need to stand back and try to approach matters with more rational detachment.

Passion is a worthy characteristic but without control it can become the blind hatred of extremism.

Irrationally destroying the whole of something because parts of the whole may be imperfect, without any insight of what to replace it with, is just anarchy.

And yet, this is exactly the Left Wing mentality; ‘Bosses are rich, Bosses are greedy, employees are poor. Business is just exploitation of the poor downtrodden workers – destroy Capitalism.

When I was an employer – albeit it a very modest one – I took out huge loans, re-mortgaged my home and worked 16 hour days for 7 days a week every week for years. I sacrificed time with my family and only took one holiday in 15 years. I never exploited anyone, and in total, 87 people – my family, and my employees and their families – were wholly reliant on me.

I was not unique – hundreds of thousands of SME’s are exactly the same, then there are the Alan Sugars, the Richard Bransons.

We need bosses. We need Capitalism.

Capitalism is an apple tree – everyone relies on its crop. If the way in which the apples are distributed is unfair, unjust, then chopping the tree down through blind anger and hatred is not the answer.

When I was a single but engaged young man and saving for a deposit and mortgage on my first home, I was employed at a large Rubber Manufacturing company, and I used to work all the overtime I could get including Saturdays and Sundays and regular ‘double shifts’. I worked on a red hot injection moulding press which made hundreds of rubber rings in each ‘pressing’. We were on a bonus scheme and I worked that hard that I actually regularly doubled my gross weekly wage.

When it came to net pay however, I actually took home far less than a really lazy quite obese guy on the next press who never even achieved his basic output targets, and never ever worked even one hour of overtime.

Why? He had six children and was married, whereas I was single.

Was it fair that I should ‘subsidise’ his children? No, it wasn't. Was it my fault that he did not exercise a degree of planning before breeding offspring he could not afford to sustain? No, it wasn't.

Did I want to ‘tear down the system? No, I didn't. Did I stop working in angry disgust and throw on the dole? No, I didn't.

Left Wing Extremist’s once again missed the point when they spewed irrational bile in protests against private healthcare schemes like B.U.P.A.

If people in a democracy choose to use their own money – whether rich or relatively poor – to invest in such healthcare, then why is it wrong?

There are no disadvantages to society or the State, only massive benefits.

It relieves the untenable pressure on our underfunded overloaded NHS, thereby enabling what Spartan budget it does have, to be better utilised, and does not cost the tax payer one penny.

It provides employment for Doctors and Nurses and thousands of auxiliary and administration staff who would still not be employed in the NHS even if no private healthcare schemes existed, because the gifted and highly qualified among them would migrate taking their skills with them, and the others would – in all probability – be on benefits, thereby costing the tax payer yet more money.

On immigration, Left Wingers allow their irrational extremism to cloud their judgement. The current ‘Open Border’ policy is an unmitigated disaster for this country.

Left Wingers are the most vociferous in their cries that our Benefits system; our schools, our NHS, Police, Ambulance, Fire services, and our highways are crumbling through lack of funding, in addition to the fact that we have a growing housing crisis.

Yet: whenever anyone even mentions the word ‘immigration’ – an irrefutable contributory factor to the overloading of the above services - Left Wing Extremists pounce on them and aggressively and unjustly denounce them as ‘Racist’.

The truth is that Left Wing Extremists are not only bigoted, but also seemingly unversed in even the most rudimentary of mathematics:

The more mouths there are to feed from a pie, then the more slices that pie has to be cut up into. The more slices a pie is cut up into, then the tinier each slice becomes. When the number of mouths keeps increasing and the pie dimensions remain static, then not every mouth can be fed because there is no pie left.

Yet; the less mouths that there are to feed from a pie – the larger a slice of pie there is for those who do feed from it. Simple really isn't it?

So can we then also understand; that the more people which flood into a tiny island of static area, then the more overcrowded that tiny island becomes?

Communism is great theoretically; “From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs” but history has taught us that it does not work.

So what happens when the ‘Public Purse’ is empty because expenditure continues to outweigh income despite the ever increasing burden on the poor British taxpayer via increased direct taxation and ever more devious indirect stealth taxes?

What happens when we cannot borrow any more money to bail out the cost of the governments continued ineptitude, seeing as how our National Debt already stands at over £1.5 trillion?

I have seen Left Wingers on here point out that; “The UK is not overcrowded, there are plenty of open spaces where people could live” – or some other equally as stupid comment.

What about the billions of pounds worth of infrastructure which is needed to urbanise those ‘open spaces’?

And where are these ‘open spaces’? – The Lake District? The Yorkshire Moors? The New Forest? Snowdonia?

There are economic and geographical reasons why towns and cities have evolved, and even if we had the funds to urbanise certain open space areas – which we don’t – sustaining communities there would be economically impossible.

I have also seen Left Wingers on here state how immigrants work and pay taxes as well as the indigenous British. Well yes – some of them do, and a lot of them don’t, and when the fiscal books are honestly balanced, the cost to this country of unfettered immigration is far, far, greater than any benefits.

And so far we have not covered the other negative impact of immigration – those irreversible changes to our own culture, religions, and traditions. It is also no trivial fact that the great majority of immigrants to this country are Muslim.

One final example of how Left Wing Extremist thinking is skewed and dangerous, is Grammar Schools.

The 11 plus examination was hard, and those pupils who passed it went on to Grammar Schools. This included kids from the most deprived and poorest of backgrounds - I know, because I was one.

The standards of discipline, and teaching in Grammar Schools was of the highest order, and the success rates of pupils gaining GCE’s were extremely high. Most pupils went onto university and graduated to become leaders in their fields.

Grammar schools had badges on uniforms, satchels, different ‘Houses’ to which the pupils were allocated to, and whose individual colours were reflected in the stripes of the school tie. The teachers and headmasters wore ‘caps and gowns’, and the school rugby fields and certain other areas were ‘out of bounds’ at break and dinner times.

Method and Order were the keywords. ‘Hard work breeds success’ was the sentiment.

Of course, the Left Wing Extremists at the time soon saw the 11 plus as ‘demeaning’ to less intelligent or clever kids and Grammar schools as ‘unacceptable examples of selective education’ and ‘entrenched educational elitism’.

Tony Crosland – an arrogant, moron of a lefty, and the Education Secretary in the 1964 Labour Government – vowed that; “If it’s the last thing I do, I’m going to destroy every fecking grammar school in England and Wales and Northern Ireland.”

And he did, because, although over a hundred did survive, their dynamics were forever adversely changed.

So let’s look at the facts; In accordance with Lefty Labour wishes, Grammar schools became Comprehensive Schools.

Out went uniforms which were deemed by the loonie Left to be elitist and unfair to poorer families who would struggle to fund such clothing.

Well, again from direct experience, let me tell you the truth.

My mother did struggle to buy my Grammar school uniform, but she did manage it by making sacrifices elsewhere, and once I had my uniform on - cap, satchel and all – this poverty stricken kid from the crumbling brick terrace streets was exactly the same as his posh schoolmates who were Doctor’s or Teacher’s sons from private semi’s and detached houses.

Just as a thick blanket of snow covers the most untidy gravel pit of a garden as equally as the most manicured of flower bordered striped lawns, uniforms were the great equaliser.

In place of uniforms came a ‘free dress’ code – the latest in ice blue jeans, leather jackets, winkle-picker shoes or Cuban heel boots. You name it the new kids who hadn’t passed the 11 plus, and the posh kids who had, wore them. But not the really poor kids like me. My mum couldn’t afford such ‘modern’ clothing, so I was truly shamed and embarrassed going to school in my shabby ‘civvies’ when most of the other kids were so ‘coolly’ attired.

So much for ‘elitist’ and ‘unfair to poorer kids’ – the effect of misconstrued Loonie Left thinking was the diametric opposite of their intent.

So what of educational standards?

Loonie Left ideology of ‘one school for all irrespective of academic ability’ was based on a presumption that the ‘brighter kids would pull the dimmer kids up – elevate them.

Of course, the opposite is true, because it is akin to throwing a few rotten apples into a barrel of healthy fruit in the belief that the good fruit will restore the bad. (FFS please let’s make it absolutely clear – even to blinkered Lefties – that I am not calling non-academic school kids ‘bad apples’, it is an analogy.)

And yes; general standards plummeted and as they did, so did educational standards.

My own Grammar school was always in the top 6 schools in the country, but as a Comprehensive it continued to plummet until – long after I had left – it was consistently in the bottom 5.

All a crying shame.

In an official sense they don't exist Kizzy, the 0.8% was arrived at by an independent source who could only estimate that 0.8% of claims were either fraudulent or wrongly claimed.
This govt. knows that to be the case too but is happy to let the media fuel discord between citizen against citizen.
I am reminded of something a lady of near 80 told me last year, she said she had lived through loads of govts. but this one was the worst and most cruel she had ever come across.
For me it is a dangerous one too,as to its divide and conquor attitude as to the working classes and those who are most vulnerable too,trying to set one against the other

If fraud and wrong claiming of benefit was as high as some of the exaggerrated incredible figures have been stated on here, the vile Sun and Daily Mail would have their whole papers full of them, instead of having to near desperately scratch around for the odd one or two cases of same.

Why is anyone with an opinion that challenges yours a loonie?

For the same reason that anyone who posts opinions which are contrary to yours are immediately challenged by you as wrong. No matter if those opinions are factually based and yours is mere opinion.

yours is all personal view, it's not based on stats just your experiences though isn't it?
We all have different experiences to draw on to form an opinion.

Of course that's going to create counter debate on most topics.

Tony Benn was branded a loony leftie too for wanting to split from the EU,this is actually now the thinking of what is termed the 'right' of those in the political spectrum, re the Conservative party and UKIP.
Well what does that make them now then.

Loonie left and other terms are all that is left when a decent argument is lost and it is only time for insults left to be flung around at those with differing views.

It is the dafter and more sad thing about politics in the UK,that anyone should be branded by anyone or organisation as to being a 'loony' of any sort just for their opinions.
I find the term loony left grossly offensive,I get it sometimes from those I know who disagree with my change of political leanings.
Off here, they get told and are left in no uncertain terms what I think of them too.

However, Kizzy, if it is that caring for a well supported NHS, that wanting to help,support and see in place protection and security for the most vulnerable, sick and disabled.
To see real jobs, not artificial low paid ones and people earning a living wage.
If that is to be deemed as being a loony from the left, well hey,I am happy to be standing up and be counted with that lot.
Far,far better,in my view, than supporting persecution, discrimination, heartlessness and injustice against such people and issues.

You're correct as ever Joey, I wish everyone had your clarity of vision.
I'm proud too, why the 'I'm alright jack' UKIP attitude is accepted I don't know... is the destruction of society, community and the infrastructure of the UK as it stands workable?
I don't think so, I also don't believe that those who support UKIP understand just how dangerous the policies proposed could become if they were to gain power n the future.

To me Joey - you are a socialist not a Left Wing Extremist or 'Loonie Lefty'.

You are passionate in your political beliefs without ever losing your moderation. You do not 'pounce' unjustly on any post which mentions any point contrary to yours, and you do not denounce such posts in their entirety - merely counter the points you do not agree with.

Nor were you around during the periods my posts referred to when there was a definite and powerful element within the the then Labour party, whose ideologies and policies were indeed 'Looney' and damaging to this country.

Tony Benn is one of my political heroes because of his honesty, his passion, and his integrity - all rare qualities in any politician, and yes, he may have been referred to as 'looney left' by some, but not by me, who always believed his anti-Europe stance was correct - and so it has proved to be.

As for insults and offensiveness Joey - no one on here has been subjected to as much, and this is compounded by the fact that most Left Wing socialists on here repeatedly do not read or understand my posts and consequently end up misquoting those posts, and criticising 'imagined' text in those posts which simply is not there.

I will answer the question of percentages in another post, but for now, perhaps you can explain how condemning fraudulent claimants - in any number - is picking on the poor, blaming the poor or 'caning' the sick and disabled?

Fraudulent claimants exist - irrespective of percentages. Fraudulent claimants are not sick so can work and do not qualify or deserve sickness or incapacity benefits. The fraudulent claimants I am referring to are not poor because their benefits are additional to their covert incomes and they claim through greed not need.

The more fraudulent claims there are which are stopped, then the more money there is to support the genuinely ill and needy.

How is such a sentiment misconstrued by so many socialists on here? How am I attacking the poor by condemning such fraudsters?

Why am I constantly having to defend myself against non-existent 'crimes' which only exist in the bigoted minds of those who either cannot read properly or who have not the mental capacity to understand what they have read?

It is very tiring and tedious, and it is the same with the NHS.

The socialists on here seem to arrogantly presume that they - and only they - are guardians of the NHS, the only one's who want to see a better, more efficient NHS, where funding is not a problem, patient care is excelled and beds can be found for everyone in need of them.

Well I have news for them - they are not the only ones.

Nowhere in any of my posts have I suggested, hinted, or stated any desire to see the end of the NHS, and it is utterly dishonest for anyone to state otherwise.

If I perceive unfettered immigration and fraudulent claimants to be real factors in the sociopolitical decline in this country, then I have a right to say so without what I say being dishonestly misconstrued as racism or as attacks on the poor and vulnerable of this country.

I am neither Extreme Right or Extreme Left in my politics, but I am as patriotic to this country and care about its people as much - if not more - than those so wrongfully attacking me for my views.

Perhaps those on here who are Labour supporters and less moderate than you in their conduct, should cease being offensive to others by constantly accusing them without foundation, if they do not want to be offended by being labelled 'Loonie Lefties' by return, because factually; by their self-proclaimed politics they are 'Left', and as their continual trait of misquoting and criticising what is not there to be criticised is not the actions of any sane, rational person, then the term 'Loonie Lefty' is perhaps apt.

Neither is anyone who has contributed to this thread which is why your comments were so unnecessary.

Basically you stand by your insults seemingly and anyone who dare challenge you on any issue deserve them.

We understand only too well how society, community and infrastructure in this country is already being tangibly destroyed by unfettered immigration because of the existing suicidal 'Open Door' policy.

We understand the possible risk that UKIP may turn into a nightmare with dangerous policies, but we also understand the reality - not risk, but reality - of just how dangerous the policies of the existing government already are, as we understand the non-policies of the opposition party, who cannot be trusted anyway due to historical fact.

If Farage ever did come to power, then his tenure of No.10 would be confined to just 4 years if he did not deliver, and that period is not long enough to ruin this country any more than the other parties have ruined it over the past 50 years or so. Neither is it long enough to see the fruition of any positive policy implementations either.

Well I dislike intensely the right, left and centre nonsense of politics, so I would never even loosely use a term of loony right or daft centrists so object to people like me being branded loony lefties because we now support the Labour party.

I see no reason for that as part of reasoned debate and can say that because I don't do it.

I think this right,left and centre nonsense is a blight on sensisble politics, all it is really are different views and different means to reach the same destination of all being good for the UK as a whole.

Capitalism was mentioned above as in that we need it, we have had a capitalist society for ages.
Between 1979 and 1997 we had a whole record 18 years unbroken of a capitalist orientated govt.
Things were always going wrong and big problems were left at the end of that time in 1997, particularly as to the NHS which I have said repeatedly was on its knees in 1997 after 18 years of capitalist govt.

If they couldn't get it right in that time with the majorities they had, then they never will.

I actually feel now that capitalism has failed and stiifled the UKs strengths and success so I prefer the mix,although I would admit, I now would love to see far more of socialist policies of state running of some industries,such as energy and water and rail,despite the problems of the past with that.

Furthermore, I have no problem at all with the condemnation of people claiming benefits wrongly and/or fraudulently,I support any measures that are reasonable to catch them that do not have a knock on effect to cause greater stress to those doing things correctly.

What I do have an issue with is the massively over inflated and exaggerated figures as to percentages that people throw out as a fact, without knowing so beyond all doubt,of how many are claiming wrongly or fraudulently.

The figure revealed on a recent Channel 4 programme devoted to benefits last year,stated that independent investigation found that only 0.8% of benefit claims were by fraud or claimed wrongly.
That leaves 99.2% seemingly claiming correctly, so where do half the claimants or therefore 50% or these other inflated endless numbers, who it is said are claiming fraudulently come from, and from what official source.
That is what I object to, this following of the biased media on this subject,who find one case and present it as the norm of benefit claimants.

Then people start to believe that is the case but I have dived in there to help those struggling, with endless new forms, the new changes,the alterations to payment dates and times,the appeals against the unjustified loss of some benefits for a time, and therefore, seeing firsthand,have found that in fact, the real case is more people are actually unlikely to be getting all the benefits they are really entitled to,rather than most claiming fraudulently.

Funny how few who go on about benefit fraud,rarely or never say those not getting the benefits they should be, (and the govt. knows they should be because some funds in the benefits pot are left unclaimed),should be looked for and made sure they do get them.
All the emphasis is,in my view wrongly, on those in the projected 0.8% who are deemed to be claiming wrongly.

I have enough faith in the electorate of this Country and particularly the young that UKIP will never be a force of govt.
I also really believe a govt. Conservative led that involved in any way UKIP could destrioy the Conservative party totally.

I really believe no matter the result of the 2015 election, the aim by all prties will be to ensure UKIP are sidelined and have not the slightest of influence.

I agree with you, UKIP's policies are dangerous,because they wrap their policies in pretty wrapping paper but never really reveal what is inside the package in full detail.

:clap1:

then you have no idea of the DM generation

idealism is essentially bankrupt

I'm hoping the youth of today aren't as led by the nose by the DM as the middle aged middle English seem to be.

better than that lead by dangerous populist narcisistic idiots like your hero russell lets not bother voing brand. pathetic spineless fool

at least the daily mail prints the truth, the socialists just cover everything up

'My' hero?...
Is he my hero?

Such as... what are the right wing honest Johns at the mail uncovering that the left leaning media is hiding?

Gosh Kizzy :joker:,I have heard some odd things in my only 22 years of life but the Daily Mail telling the truth at any time, really is astounding.

It is only very marginally better than the vile Sun for printing pure invention as news.

I have heard it all now.:conf:

no its based on stats, 3600 new european laws, 8 million population increase, etc etc your opinions arent based on anything other an irrational hatred of nigel farage which you cant explain or justify especially as youve been exposed on here as a poster who has done no research.

as always you dont even know your own mind lol