It's all to do with instinct - it has nothing to do, initially at least, with the social constructs of how men and women are perceived to behave on a day to day basis. It's the different hormones and feelings that men and women separately feel that their brain ultimately rejects. After that is when it turns into a rebellion from dresses/makeup/long hair/ sport/ facial hair etc, because the constructs of stereotypical feminity and masculinity are all around us it adds to the internal pressure; hence a strong urge to disassociate from it all from a very young age.

:clap1:

I feel like trans shouldn't be put in the same basket as 'I sexually identify as a cactus' stuff either...

If you accept that anyone can identify as anything they feel they are. AND that treating a trans person in any way other than the sex they identify as, regardless of anything else is transphobia..I can tailor this to you as I know you are a gay guy, makes it a bit easier.

You would therfore sleep with a trans man who had a vagina?

I may be screwed up in thinking at the moment as I have had a LOT to take in over the past few days...but this makes sense to me at the moment

Why not though? If the person genuinely does believe themselves to be a cactus. Its essentially no different :S

I have never heard of the cactus thing though. Seems to be mainly animals, races and disabilities.

I don't understand this at all?

Maybe :shrug:

are you actually being serious

OK this makes not much sense to me at all then. Because this means, you would essentially shag a woman who just told you that she identified as a man.

Yes I am..as I don't believe I have any different 'instincts' to guys? I have naturally different hormones which help me change to bear children and have a womans body, a softer voice (generally) and such but I don't understand what is meant by living as a woman is all about instincts

I am genuinely not trying to troll or anything here. I know this is what you are thinking now just from the reply you just gave me

:joker:

Honestly I hate the fact I get anxious whenever someone posts or bumps a gender thread on here these days, it shouldn't be like that but most of them used to just end in people being really nasty for no reason :/

Anyway...

You started well by acknowledging that gender is a social construct, I actually get a little excited when people come to this realisation - and it's about time more people did! All of what you said is true, the stereotypes that encompass traditional notions of what constitute a 'man' and a 'woman' are by their very nature socially constructed, they are not in any way inherent. The only difference human beings have on this planet is chromosomal makeup and anatomy, which are biological and refer to one's 'sex', not 'gender'. I've been saying this for years to no avail and being mocked when it's simply the truth.

I should quickly point out it's 3am, I need to sleep and am travelling tomorrow so am rush replying to this and won't be cross checking everything you said. I believe you mentioned the fact that some trans people don't wish to 'transition' and have sex-reassignment surgery and you're right - it's actually more common than you might think. I remember reading a blog once which basically boiled this issue down and really struck a chord with me - can you imagine just how awful it must be to feel like you have to go through such life altering surgical procedures - the results of which only you and a select few people will ever see - just to feel like you're at last ~truly~ the gender of which you identify with. The person who wrote this was quite cutting and dismissive of the idea, basically saying **** that and asking why should he be compelled to do that? And he's right. The problem is of course is that we live in a society which has constructed this binary of men and women, with various gender stereotypes and roles associated with them - and many people feel as if they have to conform to one of these. The fact that many people place genitalia when it comes to defining gender (mistaking it with biological sex) on such a pedestal doesn't help matters either. In an ideal world people could dress how they want, act how they want and live in an environment which doesn't perpetuate what is ultimately a completely pointless binary. There are very little reasons for us to divide people into 'men' and 'women' when you think about it. What's the point in segregated toilets? The answer: socially constructed fears and taboos. What's the point in toys targeted at boys and girls? The answer: gender stereotypes. If it weren't so late I'd think of more examples but ultimately my point is it's unnecessary for us to live in such a society where people are boxed and categorised, humans like to label things to make sense of a complex world but that doesn't change the fact it is complex.

I went off on a bit of a tangent there but I think my point is that trans people who wish to ~officially~ transition and have the op often do so because they believe that that's the 'only way' the gender they identify with will align with their sex, and we as a society are to blame for this. It's us who seem to see anatomy and genitalia as the true marker of one's identity but yet it isn't. Your gender, and the socially constructed roles and stereotypes that go along with it - are how you identify yourself and other people identify you. That is what gender is, it's what people see and how you outwardly present yourself. Nobody self identifies or is indentified by other people via their sex, for that to be a thing you'd have to inspect people's bodies upon meeting them and that just doesn't happen. It's not relevant to anything or anyone unless you sleep with them. We need to move away from being a society that believes 'well you aren't a woman until you have tits and a vag!!!!!' and 'you ain't coming in this women's toilet to piss in private with a dick mate!!!'. It's damaging and defeatist, not to mention pointless.

As for the rest of the stuff about these deranged people on Tumblr and the like, all I'd say is you have to be very careful about taking these people at face value and assuming they're representative of the entire trans movement. They're not. You're always going to get some crazies on the internet and most of these people are just looking for a reaction to some ludicrous ideas, don't pander to them. It's just the same as how radical feminists do not represent the entirety of indeed the majority of the feminist movement (which you fleetingly mentioned at some point), it's annoying how feminism has been tarnished because people believe all feminists are man haters when that's simply not the case.

Anyway, that's enough for now lol

Let's not try and trip people up and then wildly accuse them

It's about the person tbqh- and if they were looked my type and I had fallen in love with them (not just a ****ing one night stand, like WHAT are you trying to say, that someone would come up to me and say 'hey I'm a man' and I'd jump in the bed with them?!) it just really depends and how long I've known them for etc...

Jesus christ..this seems like you mostly agree with me? I was expecting to lock horns as my view isn't really the current politically correct one

The bolded bit I know this already. But it is the views of the main trans-activists that we hear about, and as such it is attributed to the whole community as they are the only ones who speak out...'normal' (for want of a better word) trans people just want to get on with life..not be constantly raking up hatred by coming out with unnecessary stuff such as lesbians should have sex with people who have penises. That is just ****ing absurd to me?!

I'm not trying to trip you up :laugh: I am actually really wanting to talk about stuff and clear my head on it all...

If its all about the person and not their sex, then really, there is no such thing as gay, straight, bi, or any sexuality as we know it?#


You are making me question myself so much right now and you probably dont even know it. My thought process is this. I am attracted to guys. It could well be that I am just attracted to people who LOOK like guys. If faced with a guy I fancied who turned out to have a vagina I would say no. Does this make me intolerant of others, or does it simply mean, I like dick. I barely have a sex drive at all but if I found out a partner had womens bits I just couldnt do it...

I see what you're trying to get at here and it's an intriguing question but ultimately all it boils down to is people's personal preferences and attractions.

Some people love dick, some people love pussy. Some people love both, and get turned on at the thought of both. Others prioritise body shapes or facial appearances, or a combination of all of these. It's not a universal thing that can be applied to everyone. You could hypothetically meet a trans man that hasn't had surgery yet, be attracted to their outward appearance (i.e. their gender) but be repulsed by the thought of a vagina, and that's fine. There will be however people who end up in similar situations and are so attracted to the person that they don't care about the genitalia, or indeed fancy experimenting.

Unfortunately here we risk getting into a debate about the ins and outs of human sexuality and how you can pretty much argue that's socially constructed too but that's a recipe for disaster so let's not :joker:

(It really did seem like you were saying if someone came up to me and exclaimed they were male that I'd **** em :S)

And no that's not the point. There is sexuality. I do like dick. If say someone had chatted me up and we went up and it got to a real stage and then they're like 'I don't have a penis, I'm trans' I'd be like okay um
No, it's not something you should expect someone to just accept straight away but that doesn't mean things couldn't work out. You never know what will happen... Like I'm 16 and have had no experience so like...

Not sure if this is making sense but

Heh yeah I suppose. I have opened one gigantic can of worms tonight, lets not do another.

Do you agree, that its good to be able to actually talk about stuff though without it always being shut down? This was my main point in all of that essay tbh as I have been in the dark about everything to do with this issue for so long as the second the matter is mentioned, if you have any view other than the currently accepted 'right one' thats it, you are told to shut up and get lost as you are bigoted etc etc.

The main thing I can't fathom is the mental illness thing. That isn't true at all. If they want surgery to make themselves THEM then that is their choice not a damn mental illness

I was expecting to disagree with you too but nope, in the first part of your post you pretty much said what I've been trying to tell this forum for years - that gender is socially constructed. There are books and journals written on this ffs and hopefully if I go through with doing my dissertation on gender and/or sexuality in the next year I'll be able to recommend some of them :laugh:

It is absurd, you're right. But most of these people are glorified trolls who just want a reaction. Don't get me wrong, there are some things I agree with that are often mocked, but that thread the other day about lesbians having to suck dick or whatever is nothing more than some deranged people taking the issues to the extreme and in the process tarnishing the entire movement, which is exactly what's happened with radical feminism.

Its a matter of opinion though I think rather than true and false, or right and wrong. If they feel like they need tits and a vagina, or a dick to be them, fair enough, I will support that. I see this as a BDD issue though rather than being in the wrong body (given that I do not believe in 'gender', only sex) and that they see it as the wrong body solely because of how sociey has...indoctrinated them in a way . Which in itself deserves sympathy and support...but surgery could well be the wrong road to push them down, and this is proven time and time again by those who transition, then regret it and either go back, or live miserably forever.

A better understanding...all round is surely whats needed here. And this can only happen if people are allowed to discuss things.

It was treated as a mental illness for ages though, are there cases of gender dysphoria being cured through therapy? I am really curious now.

BTW due to me being a mumbling tired mess due to the time some of my posts could be misunderstood or something because I haven't explained it well enough

Glorified trolls being given a platform..by being elected (meaning they have support?!) for their vile views though..its just wrong. Ada was not removed until they insulted the police too..which is even worse. The stuff about expelling lesbians who won't shag them was perfectly fine apparently. (I use them as the term Ada prefers, not meaning them as a whole group)

The ladies I linked to in my post are against the militant trans-activism and are transwomen themselves which has opened my eyes even more on everything. I spoke also to someone who used to define themselves as trans woman who now goes by 'non-gender conforming man' after working out in their head all the gender rubbish. Unfortunately he had started the process of changing and has taken hormones and had a boob job as he was convinced by medical professionals and others that he actually was a woman. So its proving hard to come back from and he is so miserable at the moment...Its scary **** that this goes on.

Absolutely, until taboo subjects and minority rights are discussed openly and widely in the public domain nothing can progress, no one can be enlightened or educated. My main opposition to these kind of topics just comes from bad experience, there was a period this forum went through where civilised discussions were out of the window and it was just full of dismissive, patronising, passive aggressive and downright insulting posts and it was all just completely miserable. Hence why I've not liked discussions like these being started ever since, but hey maybe things have changed now

No I agree, it is less about mental illness and more about societal pressure to conform to a binary and the false notion that your sex is your true marker of your identity when it isn't, it's your gender.

What needs to happen is we need as a society to stop peddling this idea that to be a true 'woman' or 'man' you need to have sex reassignment surgery. It's unnecessarily damaging to so many people and it's an operation of which the effects are going to be seen by very little people.

Do I think people should be allowed to go through with transitioning and surgery if they so choose? Of course, but I'd much rather we tried to establish a society free of pointless binaries and categories and just allowed people to dress, act and self define how they wish without being mocked or told they need to conform to some particular ideal

I bloody hope so. Used to enjoy this section so much, I really hope people continue in the spirit I intended this to be in and be respectful, but honest about what they think.

Hmm. Again this shocks me as it seems you agree with my view on the following..I will ask anyway. I expected this part to go down like a lead balloon...

Do you believe, the more we work to remove stereotypes...eg the more guys go out in dresses and do not GAF about it and such, the more we move away from the stupid notions of women are soft and emotional while men never cry and such...we will see less cases of people thinking they are trans?