It has not been conclusively determined that gender is solely based on brain differences. That is your take on the discussions - not fact. The whole subject is still under discussion with, as yet , no conclusive outcome - so do us all a favour and stop trying to present your opinion as written in stone, undeniable fact. It isn’t.

I do know what you're saying! I think you're saying that your womanhood developed over time through the experiences that you had? (If no, ignore below)

I'd argue that if your brain had more 'masculine features' you wouldnt have grew up into a woman, if your brain was more masculine than feminine, you would sooner associate yourself with manhood.
I think the average transperson has a brain that did not correlate with their birthsex growing up, and as such, they grew up thinking and feeling like their desired sex despite not technically being that sex.
I'd argue that you feeling more in touch with your womanhood is directly linked to your more feminine brain, and me being more in touch with manhood is directly linked to my brain, and if we were born with the same brain but different sexes, we'd likely want to become transpeople.

And I have an awful lot of sympathy for anyone in that situation Jamie, I really do, it must be awful to feel that way and I'm not for second saying that I think they're making it all up, I just think it's unhelpful to try and label it in a way that's trying to build up stereotypes again

The issue was in relation to the perception of how other men reacted to women when he was seen as male too....that's how I understood it.
Should she be in a male environment she may already identify as female whilst looking male, however other males would still react to her as male.

In many ways she would be better placed to comment on patriarchy being in a sense an incognito female.

Ok, I suppose there isn't very much more to say on it. I understand the point you're making but I don't agree with it

...yeah and there always has to be a ‘first’ as well, Jamie...or a first recognised, which many have been made more aware of recently because of ‘The Danish Girl’...and Lili being the first surgical ‘transitioning’....but she felt before that, I guess fitted some ‘female strereotypes’....I think the progress is that tran people no longer have to look at surgery as being the only option to have recognition of their gender...which is why i’m pro self-identifying also...but then with self identification, it’s always the thing of being open to ‘abuse’ as well...so I do completely understand concerns there also...which is why it’s so important that these things can be discussed without ‘labelling’....

Last question, so you believe transpeople exist because of stereotypes, and nothing to do with their brains? Or you just think there must be some other explanation?

No I don't think transpeople exist because of stereotypes, honestly I think it's a type of dysphoria and I have an awful lot of sympathy for anyone who is transsexual.

Okay, so here's a scenario that happened to him. At the start of his transitioning period he did everything he could to look like a boy. His mum went along with him on his induction day at uni and he was clearly concerned that people would catch him out and laugh at him (he's very quiet and shy). He had to line up and register. When he got to the registration table the woman couldn't find his name (his name is the same as his birth name as it can be used for boys or girls). The woman suddenly proclaimed loudly, "Oh here it is, I have you down as a female" and continued "Oh right ok... your a male now!!". He was devastated.

Yes, its true, he was once a girl... he knows that but that doesn't mean he wants everyone in the room to know that. Informing a transgender that they were once female is a pointless and an inconsiderate action.

Nobody dies, nobody gets physically hurt but any act that causes anxiousness, upset and even depression should be avoided. Its called tact.

And (sorry) that their brains tend to develop in a way more stereotypically opposite-sex-way because of their dysphoria, instead of them being born with just a brain that would have always developed that way?

In this instance everyone in the room did know, having spent some time as the opposite sex is not a dirty secret either.

So you agree that gender is a bunch of stereotypes now :hehe:

But no I don't agree that their brain develops into a female brain or whatever, I feel that they're unhappy with themselves and want to change who they are

I actually find being called cis offensive. It feels like people trying to label women in a way to validate trans women more. The difference is where I would be generally polite in calling a trans woman she, even when she looks like a man, I doubt any of her supporters would show me the same politeness in not using the word cis in relation to me and my gender.

I always agreed with that, the brain differences between most males and most females has created stereotypes.

Do you remember when Courtney from Celeb Big Brother would identify his gender a '4' on a scale from 0 'entirely female' to 6 'entirely male'. Don't you think its that a transmale would probably identify their gender as a 0 or 1 which makes them unhappy and want to change?
Like I don't think any 6s who are unhappy with themselves would change their sex?

Cis is a word given to men too? It just means your sex and your gender correlate. As a way to differentiate between you and a transwoman, or me and a transman.

Withano we're just back to having the same argument again now though, I already told you that I don't agree with the whole "male" female" stereotype making you male or female so I can't really answer that question. I loved Courtney/Shane but I didn't agree with his opinions on everything

I think it's easy to forget that there are FtoM trans people aswell because we hear a lot less from them over MtoF, also the issues Vicky speaks about affect women more than men I think.

Cis literally means you identify as the sex you were born. Nothing offensive about it.

I have literally no time to go into this in much depth as I'm leaving for work in 10 mins and I'm not even dressed, but as a quick run-down ;

- I'm not just talking about this thread (this may be where some of the confusion is coming from).

- I'm not saying there isn't scope for discussion or scepticism or criticism on the topic, at all, and yes Vicky has done so in a well thought out way several times.

- she is also guilty of posting the (to paraphrase) comments that amount to "Just because a bloke cuts off his dick doesn't make him a woman!!". Again this is not an exact quote, just in the ball park.

- these are what I have a problem with because points being made with similar language would quite blatantly NOT be accepted if it was about a racial group, homosexuals, or pretty much any other group.

- my MAIN ISSUE is that it has to be either OK or not OK. My personal view is that I have ZERO doubt that these comments would be far more likely to be flagged if several moderators hadn't expressed clear support of those comments or the ideology behind them. In the past, I've never had any major concerns about mod impartiality on here but at this point, there are clear issues.

- Kizzy. I didn't quote ANYONE in my initial post about this. Feel free to check, guys. I quoted Kizzy AFTER Kizzy demanded to see an example, as it was the most recent example on the page. I'm sorry Kizzy but none of this is about you at all. I know that's hard to accept.



Anyway like I said, can't really go into a back and forth on this just now but (look forward to it, guys!) I'm off tomorrow so I'm going to mull the issue over and give it it's own thread. Just wanted to address some of the initial misunderstanding.

I'm not talking about stereotypes, I'm suggesting that Courtneys brain is midway between the typical man and the typical womans brain - nothing to do with stereotypes. He is non-binary like the majority of people.
I'm asking if you think that if a male that had a brain more feminine than Courtneys would be unhappy with themselves and want to change their sex, whereas a male who had a brain more masculine than Courtneys would be unhappy with themselves but not consider a sex change.

Well you are talking about stereotypes though, you're asking me if someone had a brain with more stereotypically male or female qualities.

What's that got to do with stereotypes?

I think a feminine brain goes far beyond thinking about shoes. [emoji23]

Tbh I think many would disagree with your comments about not having any concerns about mod impartiality on here - they just happen to come from the opposite side of the argument to you generally and have a very different experience. And I am not talking about either of the mods you mentioned. Perspective is very much related to experience.

Right. I think you threw me off with not agreeing with the link you shared. The one which suggests that there are feminine features to a brain, and masculine features to a brain.

A penis-person with more feminine features to their brain, that is unhappy with themselves would consider a sex change
Whereas
A penis-person with more masculine features to their brain, that is unhappy with themselves would not consider a sex change

Ultimately thats the difference between a male and a transfemale, no?

I don't think it's very helpful to the discussion to just come in and make a sarcastic remark tbf Marsh. I'm happy to discuss it with you but please don't do that by trying to mock my posts