Of course, I forgot - facts! Just like the facts you have produced that prove Dave charges to cure people - that one must of escaped me as well then - woah is me! :shocked: Your hypocrisy is another such fact I'm afraid!

You know what - the way things are going - I just may stay around a little longer - just to annoy you! Wouldn't that be something! :hugesmile:

Nobody needs to be a 'conman' in any of this India business but I will tell you what is happening and how this works:
(really, I am telling you what many Indians and Pentecostal Ministry people have told me)

Suppose you are a charismatic ministry looking for some 'street cred' for your group?
You'd love your video CV to show thousands of people streaming to your pulpit to convert and ask for healing etc.

Now suppose you are from a rural area (or even an urban one) but you live in a rural area in the Punjab and and don't have much in the line of highly entertaining free western style concerts?
Suppose your culture is a little unique in that - as far as your concerned - whatever religion, guru's, prophets go it doesn't really matter.
Hey.. if a strange black woman claims rastafarian psychic powers you will try out whatever formula is going on,
or,
some odd white man from the USA has an incantation about Jesus you would do that too.
Whatever.
Great!
This week 10,000 souls will show up to give their life to Guru Alice from Wonderland and next week to Jesus and next month to the Mormons.

Nobody is really 'conning' anyone here although here again you can say they are 'conning themselves' in a sort of sad naive way.
I can still recall a convo with a once enthusiastic young pentecostal gal who volunteered and was thoroughly and sincerely convinced her Pastor and them were obviously at the brink of some nearly miraculous revolution when thousands appeared and did 'alter calls',
then,
as they lived in India and she realized the same people were showing up in mass droves to commit to ANY goofy thing - she was somewhat devastated.

btw.. don't blame the Indians for anything in this either. Although some Indians tell me their countrymen were gullible,
no,
I think its just a case where its 'their perspective' and they just don't discern the differences where we suppose they should or understand their 'paradigm' with this stuff.

Anyways - it does impress many Pentecostals back home who often see these crowds and suppose some great move of God must be happening with their leaders in India.

*btw.. this is not to say there are not weighty or different experiences there too.. this is describing a rule*

Well Wombs, just after I posted the above, I took a look at your counter and see theres still 100 posts to go...
I really don't have the time to banter away so you 'win' lol, I'm putting you on ignore .. I wish I could say its been enlightening 'speaking' with you, maybe if you had discussed rather than attacked, we might have found a way to learn something from eachother. Still, I wish you well .... Adieu!

The relief, ditto! :thumbs:

Quote El Proximo: btw.. don't blame the Indians for anything in this either. Although some Indians tell me their countrymen were gullible,
no,I think its just a case where its 'their perspective' and they just don't discern the differences where we suppose they should or understand their 'paradigm' with this stuff.

Gullible ... assuming they were genuinely ill, I'd say desperate.
As I said in an older post, my sister Kris died of throat cancer a few years ago .. I would have bought into anything to help her .. with hindsight I can see that it would have been foolish and futile ... I can't imagine being silly enough to go anywhere near these people in the future BUT I also know that this would probably change if any one of my kids took ill!!
Thats where my concerns lie with outfits like Daves ... vunerable people become desperate, this can rapidly lead to exploitation.

A few Indians tried to describe this 'mentality' and it starts by understanding that many Indians are born and raised in 'polytheism'.
They already have a 'world view' where there are many gods and demi-gods and divine gurus etc,
and/or/part,
that there may be less a 'god' (in the theist sense) and more a 'god is universe is god' concept.
OK.
So when you see how that is their 'axiom' and how they see things then you can see how it is not problematic (in their view) that you may say the 'sinners prayer' and worship Jesus on Sunday,
then,
give allegiance and say the prayers of a visiting Buddhist 'evangelist' on Tuesday,
or,
Agree to follow Guru Raj on wednesday.

As for gullible I wonder. One Indian friend of mine actually wanted me to go with him to India and just pretend to be a 'Guru' because he was convinced we could get 'many many rupees' lol

Some on Christian missions likened it more to just a need for entertainment and socializing.
Punjabi farmers may not have Big Brother live-feeds and don't get many foreign rock bands putting on free concerts.
It's fun, interesting, a curiosity, an investigation, a learning experience to see some strange Americans play music and try and heal people with their hands.
Cool.
Fascinating. Lets go see what it does. Hey.. what if it worked on someone? Even if it doesn't it may be entertaining to see them try.
Maybe feel superior if it doesn't work?
Maybe its just hilarious anyways.

I'm going to make two categories for Evangelists (even though real life is not always either/or).

- The Hustlers. Not necessarily 'con artists' either but they are the ones who are aware of this situation we described.
They are not doing this for Indians so much as they are doing it for the video of 'thousands coming to Christ' at their alter-calls,
and,
then translating these images and numbers into huge support back home with a congregation supposing they are a good investment.
IF they can bring thousands and thousands to Christ in India then surely God will use them here, in England, in America etc.
*The 'Hustler' is not necessarily a 'fake'.
*This type tends to believe the 'ends justify the means' and says "well even if one Indian was sincere it was worth it",
and,
"if it does get me funding I will be successful anyways so it doesn't matter".

The Naive Preachers
- Most start this way and some actually stay this way. They arrive in India full of good intentions and expecting nobody.
Thousands show up and seem to pay special attention to them and they sincerely believe its a miracle,
that God must be using them,
that whatever they are preaching or doing is bringing thousands to alter-calls.
You can't argue with that - they sincerely believe they ought to phone home and get maximum support for this amazing success they are having. Their supporters sincerely believe it too and continue sending them to India.

Call it irony or something else but Christianity really has planted and growing a solid healthy small tree in India.
Indian Christians may be among the best 'Bereans' on the planet and some of the best Christian scholars, philosophers and 'apologists' in the world coming from India now.
Yet.. none of this seems to have come out of the evangelical charismatic 'crusades' over there.
It actually seems to be rooted back to colonial times and more modern immigration-emigration,
and... internet forums, youtube, satellite television, mass media. Basically just connecting with the modern world and having access to the 'global arena'.

I have spent so much time in and around 'Faith Healers' and I can honestly say I have never seen what I would be able to verify as a proper 'miraculous healing' of the body,
or,
for that matter I have never yet been able to verify 2nd and 3rd hand stories,
yet,
In fairness I have heard a doctor describe and verify one case of a young boy having a brain tumor disappear overnight which he described as 'physically impossible' (according to any known medical science),
and,
yes he did have x-rays etc.
Someone later suggested that it may be possible the first x-ray was some kind of freak misdiagnosis (dont ask me how),
but,
I don't even like to mention that because I never saw or heard about it again or can't find it online or contact anyone etc.

I'm sorry to hear that.
A few years ago my father came 'this close' to dying from cancer.
In fact, he was unconscious in a remote location and estimated about 30 minutes away from bleeding to death.
He was found and rescued by a Christian couple that were concerned about his health and decided to look for him that night.
I see that as the 'divine interference' that actually happened years earlier when that couple sought Christ to change their hearts and began to make caring for others their direction in life.
Which ultimately led to saving my fathers life and its interesting because even the Surgeon described the rescue as a 'miracle' in light of timing etc.
and,
as a result of the incident my father had to reconsider everything and later sought reconciliation with his family and friends and himself.
So there again is where I see the real 'divine healing' that came out of it all.
That is what's 'real' and what was the ultimate healing.

But yeah, I would never support any 'faith healers' and the good news is that the vast majority of Christians don't or are extremely conservative about such things.

And why is he not favourite to be out first on Friday and why has he survived three or is it four evictions? I do hope brainwashed members of Daves "church" havent been donating good money to save this conman.