Originally Posted by Jack_ (Post 8194131)

No it doesn't in the slightest. This is exactly the kind of misconception I was talking about in my first post in this thread.

Some people believe you are born with a sexuality (i.e. nature), others believe your sexuality comes into fruition through socialisation (i.e. nurture). Neither of these possibilities ever implies that it is possible to choose, or indeed change your sexuality. At all.

You do not choose how you are socialised, you are a product of your environment. Therefore you do not choose your sexuality. Nor can you change it. But that doesn't necessarily mean you were born with it.

I honestly don't understand why people often make this correlation between the nurture argument and people saying sexuality is a choice, the two are not related at all :shrug: the idea that you can choose or change your sexuality is moronic, but the idea that sexuality is socialised and learned behaviour is not, and is a very valid argument

Originally Posted by Quasar (Post 8194141)

The nurture argument is invalid. Daniel said he was brought up in a, for want of a better word, 'straight' family. He's still gay.

Originally Posted by Niamh. (Post 8191729)

I'm not gay so I can't really have an opinion based on anything other than what I hear gay people say and the very big majority believe that they were born gay so I'm happy to take their word for it. Does it really matter that much either way anyhow?

Originally Posted by Dezzy (Post 8191807)

I'd say that they were bisexual with a massive preference towards the opposite gender or that they repressed their bi/gay side.

Sexuality is not something that can change. No one would choose to be gay or bi if it was a choice, life is harder for anyone who isn't straight.

Originally Posted by Daniel_ (Post 8192515)

I hate being gay because most gay guys tend to be ugly

Originally Posted by Marsh. (Post 8194140)

I'm not saying "develop gay", I'm talking about sexuality in general.

Babies, as far as I'm aware, don't have sexual urges. It's something that develops later. Therefore whatever sexuality they are -straight, gay, bi, whatever- also forms later.

Originally Posted by Marsh. (Post 8194137)

Exactly.

It's like a cold blooded murderer. Doubtful they were born like that but their frame of mind was formed through their upbringing/environment etc.

Not that I'm suggesting a link between psychos and gays. :unsure:

Originally Posted by Marsh. (Post 8194142)

The nurture argument isn't suggesting that you have to grow up around gay people to become gay. :joker:

Originally Posted by Quasar (Post 8194148)

But when then sexual urges come into effect you already know or are confused about what triggers them urges. Most people know what floats their boats and gay people mainly suppress it because of the stigma they believe it holds.

Originally Posted by Quasar (Post 8194155)

Of course it does. That was his personal environment.

Originally Posted by Marsh. (Post 8194158)

:facepalm:

Originally Posted by Quasar (Post 8194160)

What environments would you say could contribute to someone being gay

Originally Posted by Marsh. (Post 8194162)

It's not as simple as putting together a formula to say...

If you grow up with a straight mother and father - you'll be straight

If you are brought up by your single mother and a gay uncle - you'll be gay.

It's a hell of a lot more complex than that.

Originally Posted by Quasar (Post 8194141)

The nurture argument is invalid. Daniel said he was brought up in a, for want of a better word, 'straight' family. He's still gay.

Originally Posted by Quasar (Post 8194163)

Like?

Originally Posted by LiamBB (Post 8194147)

You don't need to be gay to have an opinion on sexuality. Everyone has one :spin:







:nono: I completely disagree. It really bothers me when people say things like that. Speak for yourself fine, but not for everyone else. I love being gay, wouldn't change it for anything!







:joker:

Originally Posted by Niamh. (Post 8194170)

Why is my name coming up for all 3 of those quotes, I only said the first one :suspect:

Originally Posted by Jack_ (Post 8194165)

One person's experiences posted on an internet forum does not negate an entire body of research and work into a specific argument :conf:

People also commonly assume that the nurture argument is specifically related to your family formation but that isn't just what it's about, it is far more than that. From the second you are born you are injected with norms, values, ideas, belief systems, messages, codes, cultures, environments, the list goes on. The specific elements of what shapes a person are impossible to nail down, but socialisation plays an instrumental role in the development of human beings, from the way we talk, to the things we're interested in, right down to our gender and our sexuality.

None of this is chosen, but these are not ideas you are born with whilst floating in the womb.

Originally Posted by Quasar (Post 8194183)

There are parents out there that drill so much crap into children's heads for example, how being gay is wrong. I've had that from my own father. I've been brought up by my father to think that being gay is disgusting etc and I actually did believe it at one point. But that didn't stop me being gay nor did it make me straight.

Originally Posted by Jack_ (Post 8194208)

Again, you are trying to nail the nurture argument down to specific elements which is not what it is about at all. As Marsh said, it is far more complex than that, and it is. Socialisation is not a process that can be dissected and analysed, it just ~is~. Your very being is the product of it.

And actually, if anything, I'd argue that usually being told something is bad has the opposite effect, especially on children :laugh: a bit like 'wet paint - do not touch' signs or kids that have emerged from strictly religious families and go off the rails when they get a bit of freedom. Note, I'm not actually saying what your dad said had any effect because as I said before, it's not specific things like that that the nurture argument is about

Originally Posted by Quasar (Post 8194218)

So the nuture argument is just as concise as religion then?

Originally Posted by Quasar (Post 8194237)

I don't like the idea of being told 'you're gay because of this' or 'oh that's why you're gay' it's a crock of ****. I'm gay because I'm gay, that's the way is. I can't change that.

Originally Posted by Jack_ (Post 8194234)

I don't even get what this post is supposed to mean...

Is it a dig at religion? Always down for that...