Originally Posted by Maru (Post 8845324)

Without launching into a large explanation, my response was not meant for the purpose of saying "get in line", but except maybe remember that all who walked before you and beside you are working towards a common goal and that one should borrow their brothers and sister's experiences. I'm of a very strong opinion that people should work together, particularly those within the same communities, for a common goal and purpose because no one will have your back like those who have walked in your shoes before.

Her responses are very divisive and for me, quite disconcerting because this is a time that we should all be relying one each other. I was just pointing this out in my own little way because it is my take, but at the same time dipping my toe in to see if we both could have a conversation that can go beyond certain rhetoric. Are they open to constructive thoughts or is it all just reactionary? If she took my response as too personal and too blunt, then that is half the problem... this is a controversial topic, it's going to be personal. Am I supposed to ignore my own observations of discussion and feelings being expressed here and not voice my opinion? It just seems like so few are listening to each other, more would rather do all the talking...

That said, my own words, "your own people". A person's culture is more than just skin color, it's shared experiences and common ancestors and obstacles that need to be overcome or that they are working to overcome. I can't possibly have a conversation from those shoes, because I am not in the. If I started to act as if I completely understand, that wouldn't be right. However, to reach a common goal, there eventually will need to trying other people's shoes on to see each other's points... however I take offense to someone who can be so disrespectful to others fighting the same fight and yet have no respect for their experience in it.

I would argue to some degree that it is self-hate. The disconnect is clear which is why I wrote my response and was so blunt about it. Sorry if it doesn't sound 'sensitive', but I'm the type that does not beat around the bush. She and I are very similar in that manner.

Anyway, her other post was deleted as well and so the only thing left was the lone extreme response and that was the one I had the emotional reaction to.



You're absolutely right. The last thing we need is more hate which is why I wrote my post. I think the other part that got taken out of context was when I mentioned people turning a blind eye. There are a few posters here who have made that clear and after a while you have to ask yourself if you'd just be fueling a pattern. She was very much allowed to write her own response, why would I tell someone what they can and cannot post? My post may have been very blunt and to the point in terms of trying to figure out if a conversation could happen, but I feel like the lines will get crossed anyway because these topics are so controversial and highly personalized.



How am I stopping anyone from expressing an opinion? I was expressing my own? That doesn't mean someone can't reply? Wow, you really can't say anything these days :laugh: Respectfully, I think my post was taken a little bit out of context because honestly I don't think that much about what I posted? :shrug: I wrote my concern about getting involved because of the observation. Sometimes people just write and write, they're not really there to be discussed with and that was my concern there.

If you look at my reply, it's fairly neutral. Some of her response was offensive, but she had her go at me and that was it. I sent her a friend request to reach out but I'm not going to go out of my way to be verbally abused when I legitimately do care about someone's POV's and wanted to strike a conversation. Her posts at times do not come off as welcoming discussion. I was afraid to take a chance? Many of her posts are outright name calling. I would love to discuss, but I'm only human and even I have a limit to what I can tolerate. I imagine some feel the same, which is why I wrote my post, to see if we could break the cycle?

Anyway, these are controversial discussions and I really feel to get anywhere, there needs to be trust and common respect. There seems to be little in this case, so I had already let it go. She had her rant at me and I wish her the best. I have no issues putting anyone on ignore so I already have her on there out of respect tbf. I did not want to be "tempted" by an intense discussion and find out it turns into verbal abuse and she didn't seem too keen on me with her reply but you can never be too sure. There is a lot of that going on in this particular section and I'd just like to avoid getting into some of the more ill language posts on here. I feel ill when I end up in passive aggressive conversations as they don't do me any world of good and they're predictable to be in anyway.

I do appreciate your words and I don't mind your "calling me out".

Edit: Opps, it turned into a large explanation. Sorry about that :laugh:

Originally Posted by kirklancaster (Post 8845380)

There is far too much evidence LT for me to post to be honest.

'Legal Evidence' is NOT the 'be all and end all' LT, nor is it infallible - as the dozens of PROVEN innocent men still serving life sentences in the USA (and other countries) attests, as do those cases of belatedly freed and pardoned wrongly convicted 'murderers' such as ex-World Champion boxer, Ruben 'The Hurricane' Carter - himself a victim of the most appalling and blatant racial victimisation by a police officer.

No Judicial system - anywhere - is free from corruption, because such a system, like all systems, relies on the scrupulous fairness, impartiality and honesty of MAN, and that, I am afraid, is one rather big 'ASK'.

From my perspective, 'Empirical Evidence - that evidence collated by my senses - is evidence, and I personally trust my own logic and powers of judgement based upon the overwhelming and wholly convincing wealth of empirical evidence pertaining to this issue, than I do ANY Court or 'Official Report' anywhere in the world.

I think that it must be well known on here, that I am NOT some anti-Establishment, anti-police nutjob - far from it - because I lean to the Right and The Establishment, but not so much that my leaning distorts my view or my balance of judgement.

The EVIDENCE that the USA has a real, tangible, palpable INCREASING problem with psychotic, racist, POLICE OFFICERS venting their agendas without fear of RECRIMINATION is absolutely IRREFUTABLE - in my opinion.

I cede that the percentage of such bastards is low, but percentages by themselves are meaningless; 90% of 100 is 90, 10% of 4 billion is 400000000, but when it comes to the unnecessary taking of HUMAN life. ONE is too many.

I also cede that the vast MAJORITY of Police Officers are NOT racist and that we should ALL laud the highly dangerous and thankless job which they do in both SERVING and PROTECTING the public, but to DENY or REFUSE TO SEE that there is a problem with racially motivated unlawful killing of POC's by serving police officers, for fear of tarnishing the reputation of those Police Forces as a whole, is wholly unacceptable.

These murderers could NOT flourish or even ACT unless the system which they are part of was not ALSO racially corrupt and tolerant of this practice to some degree - hence the blatant reluctance to hold any kind of 'OFFICIAL' inquiry following a lot of these 'incidents', AND the even more blatant 'Whitewashed' verdicts of 'No Case To Answer' in most cases when an inquiry is held.

The problem is NOT going to go away, and the more it is denied or ignored, the GREATER it will become.

Incidentally LT - I am making these points in a response to your question to me, but they are NOT meant intend to refer to you specifically.

Originally Posted by Kizzy (Post 8845412)

Sorry all I got from that was 'divisive' and disconcerting' why do you say so many words when just a few will do to get your opinion of others posts across?...

I don't doubt her post was deleted, when confronted with virtual finger wagging responses rarely maintain positivity.

If a post offends you report it, personally I wouldn't go into chapter and verse about it as it can be seen as character assassination...if I were to get passionate about a topic I wouldn't like it to define me as a person.

Originally Posted by Maru (Post 8845437)

You seem more invested about my posts than I am. I'm just having a discussion and I tend to write in essays. I'm a very fast typist. :laugh: Moving on...

Originally Posted by Maru (Post 8845430)

Well said, kirk. I also can't believe we are still having a discussion about whether or not A or B problem exists. Of course police brutality and abuse exists. It will always be something that needs to be kept an eye on and in check. A corrupt government and a corrupt police agency often go hand in hand.

One obstacle I get frustrated with is the way some of these agencies handle policy. To the extremely bureaucratic ones, policy is equal to efficiency. Therefore officers are expected to follow as much as they can to the letter, keeping everything neat and clear, black and white. The problem is, context and circumstances vary and sometimes things don't quite fit in the box the way they were "expected" to. The chain of command will very often have one way of handling things, which is usually micromanaging from up top from an office with no view of the field, and I'm beginning to think they purposefully choose to remain this blind so they don't have as much culpability when things go wrong.

So then the sergeant or direct supervisor does things differently than the mucky mucks up top thought they were destined to be done and in all that report writing, there's a lot of creative chatter back and forth in order to "justify" things that didn't exactly go along with policy...

Well... a lot of creative reports get written and eventually these officers start to become too good so good at it that that becomes the default way to explain situations that maybe should be handled differently or policies need to be changed. They've learned also that there are ways to explain certain things without falling on the wrong side of policy, so while up top those officials have no clue whatsoever the loop holes they've left opened and set up that eventually the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. When something does go wrong and there is a scandal they claim later on they didn't know about what was going on because even though it was in the reports, it obviously wasn't made clear enough. Therefore it isn't their responsibility so they pass it to someone else in the chain until eventually someone is stuck holding the bomb.

We had a major issue recently with an elected official, they claimed they had no responsibility because they were simply unaware... even though they were in charge of day to day operations, because they could hide behind the chain of command, they instead promised an investigation and that they would without a doubt find the people at fault and "make them pay".

It's frustrating to work within such organization as someone lower on the chain, and even more frustrating if you're the officer who wants to see things change for the better and to do things right. You have no idea who to talk to about improving or changing any policy or situation that is causing problems until you find that one guy who is willing to not only commit to the paperwork, but put his stamp on it to see it get done. When there is a lot of public scrutiny in the media and no good leadership in your org, then that one guy becomes even more difficult to find.

American culture too itself has major issues and I'm glad it's taking a beating, because let's be honest, a lot of problems begin there as well.

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet (Post 8795929)

i stick with evidence and fact not mass hysteria and mob justice

If you cant deal with that , tough

Originally Posted by kirklancaster (Post 8845447)

Thank you Maru. By return - and as I have said to you before - I LOVE your posts, so please keep them coming.

Your posts are ALWAYS well written, intelligent and informed, and on this particular issue, you are UNIQUELY placed to give us a real insight into the matter, as well as the benefit of your highly qualified opinion.

Originally Posted by Maru (Post 8845451)

Thanks kirk. I actually don't feel half the time my posts are all that well-written as I am trying to work on my English. I'm just glad when my words get across at least halfway decently. My husband is the writer and I often have him check it as well to see if I'm getting sloppy again :laugh:

Originally Posted by Maru (Post 8845324)

Without launching into a large explanation, my response was not meant for the purpose of saying "get in line", but except maybe remember that all who walked before you and beside you are working towards a common goal and that one should borrow their brothers and sister's experiences. I'm of a very strong opinion that people should work together, particularly those within the same communities, for a common goal and purpose because no one will have your back like those who have walked in your shoes before.

Her responses are very divisive and for me, quite disconcerting because this is a time that we should all be relying one each other. I was just pointing this out in my own little way because it is my take, but at the same time dipping my toe in to see if we both could have a conversation that can go beyond certain rhetoric. Are they open to constructive thoughts or is it all just reactionary? If she took my response as too personal and too blunt, then that is half the problem... this is a controversial topic, it's going to be personal. Am I supposed to ignore my own observations of discussion and feelings being expressed here and not voice my opinion? It just seems like so few are listening to each other, more would rather do all the talking...

That said, my own words, "your own people". A person's culture is more than just skin color, it's shared experiences and common ancestors and obstacles that need to be overcome or that they are working to overcome. I can't possibly have a conversation from those shoes, because I am not in the. If I started to act as if I completely understand, that wouldn't be right. However, to reach a common goal, there eventually will need to trying other people's shoes on to see each other's points... however I take offense to someone who can be so disrespectful to others fighting the same fight and yet have no respect for their experience in it.

I would argue to some degree that it is self-hate. The disconnect is clear which is why I wrote my response and was so blunt about it. Sorry if it doesn't sound 'sensitive', but I'm the type that does not beat around the bush. She and I are very similar in that manner.

Anyway, her other post was deleted as well and so the only thing left was the lone extreme response and that was the one I had the emotional reaction to.



You're absolutely right. The last thing we need is more hate which is why I wrote my post. I think the other part that got taken out of context was when I mentioned people turning a blind eye. There are a few posters here who have made that clear and after a while you have to ask yourself if you'd just be fueling a pattern. She was very much allowed to write her own response, why would I tell someone what they can and cannot post? My post may have been very blunt and to the point in terms of trying to figure out if a conversation could happen, but I feel like the lines will get crossed anyway because these topics are so controversial and highly personalized.



How am I stopping anyone from expressing an opinion? I was expressing my own? That doesn't mean someone can't reply? Wow, you really can't say anything these days :laugh: Respectfully, I think my post was taken a little bit out of context because honestly I don't think that much about what I posted? :shrug: I wrote my concern about getting involved because of the observation. Sometimes people just write and write, they're not really there to be discussed with and that was my concern there.

If you look at my reply, it's fairly neutral. Some of her response was offensive, but she had her go at me and that was it. I sent her a friend request to reach out but I'm not going to go out of my way to be verbally abused when I legitimately do care about someone's POV's and wanted to strike a conversation. Her posts at times do not come off as welcoming discussion. I was afraid to take a chance? Many of her posts are outright name calling. I would love to discuss, but I'm only human and even I have a limit to what I can tolerate. I imagine some feel the same, which is why I wrote my post, to see if we could break the cycle?

Anyway, these are controversial discussions and I really feel to get anywhere, there needs to be trust and common respect. There seems to be little in this case, so I had already let it go. She had her rant at me and I wish her the best. I have no issues putting anyone on ignore so I already have her on there out of respect tbf. I did not want to be "tempted" by an intense discussion and find out it turns into verbal abuse and she didn't seem too keen on me with her reply but you can never be too sure. There is a lot of that going on in this particular section and I'd just like to avoid getting into some of the more ill language posts on here. I feel ill when I end up in passive aggressive conversations as they don't do me any world of good and they're predictable to be in anyway.

I do appreciate your words and I don't mind your "calling me out".

Edit: Opps, it turned into a large explanation. Sorry about that :laugh:

Originally Posted by Kizzy (Post 8845170)

Your own people? Do we all have to be representative of whichever hue matches our own tone now? She is entitled to her opinion if you don't like it you are entitled to not read or respond Maru.

Personally I enjoy reading ITILYTs posts, if she is angry then she is angry I respect her right to voice that anger and frustration, I am more than willing to give her the time of day... I object to those who wish to subdue others however whether in person or on a message board, and I have the cajones to express that.

I hope you appreciate this.

Originally Posted by Kizzy (Post 8845443)

Oh no, I just say what I see about all topics...you're not special :laugh:

I'll move on when I'm good and ready..............ok, I m ready.

Originally Posted by Ithinkiloveyoutoo (Post 8845665)

Was hoping to keep ignoring this thread all together.

Originally Posted by Maru (Post 8846857)

Right. I find it interesting you will engage my response to the other poster, but you didn't bother to engage my other reply and let the conversation go stale where I was more conciliatory and had already confessed I didn't read the other response so I lacked the proper context to reply.

Beyond that, there's nothing else to say. The rest would just be beating a dead horse which serves no real purpose than to derail a thread further.

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet (Post 8846862)

maru dont rise to the baiting. You have expressed yourself impeccably so no need to further qualify this.

Originally Posted by Maru (Post 8846857)

Right. I find it interesting you will engage my response to the other poster, but you didn't bother to engage my other reply and let the conversation go stale where I was more conciliatory and had already confessed I didn't read the other response so I lacked the proper context to reply.

Beyond that, there's nothing else to say. The rest would just be beating a dead horse which serves no real purpose than to derail a thread further.