You misunderstood me, Islam accepts Bible that was give to Jesus, but believes later on it has become corrupted by men, the obvious scientific error cannot be attributed to all-knowing. It had to be changed. By the way Prophet Mohammed was clearly prophecised in the OT and NT as the final Prophet even by name.:bigsmile:

No misunderstanding, the Bible has undergone many examinations to assertain its validity to both age and whether its text has changed, so far the Bible has wistood the test, it was written well before the advent of the Qu'ran and is yet to be proven erronous by both science and historians.

Man made christian doctrine orininating from the spread of the Roman empire making compromises with pagan worship of the captive natives is another matter, all these beliefs now found in Christendom are all as like that of the Islamic faith man made and full of contradictions to the original inspired truth.

Can you quote me the scripture where Muhammad is said to come by name? In the case of jesus's coming the bible has hundreds of proghecies to this momentous coming of Gods son, from his place of birth his family linage to David, his time of ministry, his capture by means of a traitor for 30 pieces of silver, his silence before trial, his death, and buried amondst the rich, and ultimately his ressurection after 3 days.
How could Muhammad be considered in the same light as a mere prophet and by using the same set of scriptures.

Like I say if you even use one scripture from the Bible to justify Islam, then because of its importance to Allah it must be a very reliable and holy book indeed.
But by doing so you must accept ALL of the bible or you fall into the same catergory of all those man made churches of christendom who have allowed such abominable practises within its faith, I cant see how Islam has done anything different in this respect by accepting exactly what they do and dont want to believe from the original holy scriptures.

The fact there's 7 pages of incredibly boring and hair-splitting argument here gives me the reason to not bother with religion at all.

All it does is cause boring debate and pointless argument, not to mention war, injustice, violence...

Its not a cause of those, its those which justify themselves by religion.

I left this debate properly along time ago. It was debating the centre of the Earth, not Islam as a whole. Its just turned into farhad attempting to teach us about Islam and convert us.

Spot on shaun< i'm trying to point out the pure hyposcricy here of mans beliefs muslim or christian.

Seems pretty simple to me, thou shalt not kill, but if you had any doubts to that message then Jesus (son of God or prophet said) to love others like I have loved you.
Jesus never so much as hit anyone let alone killed people on mass.

So what does man do when interpreting holy scripture? it defends so passionatley that is THE WORD OF GOD and not to be mocked or misquoted, even if in a harmless cartoon.
What respect do they all show consistantly once they get the inspired words from God.

You got it, they go out and slaughter anyone in sight no matter who or when
Muhammad got his message when he was 40, by 45 he was on the way to forming an army to slaughter people and take his homeland back.
Some people just go out and become phycopathic serial killers for everyone else they do it the easy way, start a new religion and everyones is fair game when it comes to mass slaughter, and then they have the gaul to call us infedels and ungodly, I prefer peace myself so Islam or any other faith just aint for me.

Quran said Prophet Mohammed was not only foretold in the Bible but also fortold in various hindu scripture even by name which i will show you as the coming of final prophet.:thumbs:

"And when Jesus son of Mary said: O Children of Israel! Lo! I am the messenger of Allah unto you, confirming that which was (revealed) before me in the Torah, and bringing good tidings of a messenger who cometh after me, whose name is Ahmad (the Praised One)." (Qur'an 61:6)

The liberation of Mecca (Paran) by 10,000 Muslims in the Bible:

Let us look at the following Verse from the King James Version Bible: "And Enoch [Idris in Arabic, one of Allah Almighty's Prophets peace be upon all of them to the people of Israel.] also, the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord came with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard [speeches] which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. (Jude 1:14-15)"

Let us also look at the following Verse: "And he said, The LORD came from Si'-nai, and rose up from Se'-ir unto them; he shined forth from mount Pa'-ran [Mecca in Arabic], and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them. (The King James Version Bible, Deuteronomy 33:2)" According to Islam's history, when Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him and his followers faced hostility from the people of Mecca (Paran), they had to leave the city. They fled to the City of "Yathrib" which was called later "Madina" where Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him continued to spread Islam to all of the Arabs and then later to the countries near by.

(Click here) See Proof that "Paran" in the Bible is "Mecca".

When Islam became complete and the number of the Muslims grew up, Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him decided to liberated the Holy City of Mecca, the city of our beloved father Abraham the father of Ishmael and Isaac peace be upon all of them who built the black cube building of Kaaba in the same city, the Holy House of GOD Almighty.

The army of the Muslims that conquered Mecca without any blood shed (peacefully) were exactly 10,000 men (From the book of "Muhammad the Prophet" by Maulana Muhammad Ali, pages 128-129). The Bible calls them "ten thousands of saints".

Also, the movie "The Message", which talks about the life of Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him, mentions that Mecca was liberated by 10,000 Muslim men.

As brother Abdul Haleem mentions below:

"Muhammad In World Scriptures," Volume I, Maulana Abdul Haq Vidyarthi (New USA Edition, 1999), p. 73.

"Paran" is a biblical name for the part of Arabia called Hejaz where prophet Muhammad [pbuh] was born. When prophet Ishmael and his mother were driven out by Sarah; they settled in the "Wilderness of Paran" (Genesis, 21:21). Prophet Ishmael happens to be the progenitor of prophet Muhammad [pbuh]. . . ."Muhammad [pbuh] In the Bible," Mohd Elfi Nieshaem Juferi, http://members.xoox.com/_XMCM/lordxa.../habakkuk.html.


Internet links that have references and proofs of the 10,000 Muslim men liberating the city of Mecca in the Islamic history:

To see more go that site as i cant fit all in.:thumbs:
http://www.answering-christianity.com/predict.htm

Almighty God speaks to Moses in Book of Deuteronomy chapter 18 verse 18:

"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and I will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him."

The Christians say that this prophecy refers to Jesus (pbuh) because Jesus (pbuh) was like Moses (pbuh). Moses (pbuh) was a Jew, as well as Jesus (pbuh) was a Jew. Moses (pbuh) was a Prophet and Jesus (pbuh) was also a Prophet.

If these two are the only criteria for this prophecy to be fulfilled, then all the Prophets of the Bible who came after
Moses (pbuh) such as Solomon, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Malachi, John the Baptist, etc. (pbut) will
fulfill this prophecy since all were Jews as well as prophets.

However, it is Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) who is like Moses (pbuh):


i)
Both had a father and a mother, while Jesus (pbuh) was born miraculously without any male intervention.

[Mathew 1:18 and Luke 1:35 and also Al-Qur'an 3:42-47]


ii)
Both were married and had children. Jesus (pbuh) according to the Bible did not marry nor had children.

iii)
Both died natural deaths. Jesus (pbuh) has been raised up alive. (4:157-158)

Muhammad (pbuh) is from among the brethren of Moses (pbuh). Arabs are brethren of Jews. Abraham (pbuh) had two sons: Ishmail and Isaac (pbut). The Arabs are the descendants of Ishmail (pbuh) and the Jews are the descendants of Isaac (pbuh).

Words in the mouth:

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was unlettered and whatever revelations he received from Almighty God he repeated them verbatim.

"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him."

[Deuteronomy 18:18]


iv)
Both besides being Prophets were also kings i.e. they could inflict capital punishment. Jesus (pbuh) said, "My kingdom is not of this world." (John 18:36).

v)
Both were accepted as Prophets by their people in their lifetime but Jesus (pbuh) was rejected by his
people. John chapter 1 verse 11 states, "He came unto his own, but his own received him not."

iv)
Both brought new laws and new regulations for their people. Jesus (pbuh) according to the Bible did not bring any new laws. (Mathew 5:17-18).

It is Mentioned in the book of Deuteronomy chapter 18:19

"And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not harken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him."


3.
Muhammad (pbuh) is prophesised in the book of Isaiah:

It is mentioned in the book of Isaiah chapter 29 verse 12:

"And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned."

When Archangel Gabrail commanded Muhammad (pbuh) by saying Iqra - "Read", he replied, "I am not learned".

4.
prophet Muhammad (pbuh) mentioned by name in the old testament:

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is mentioned by name in the Song of Solomon chapter 5 verse 16:

"Hikko Mamittakim we kullo Muhammadim Zehdoodeh wa Zehraee Bayna Jerusalem."

"His mouth is most sweet: yea, he is altogether lovely. This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters
of Jerusalem."

In the Hebrew language im is added for respect. Similarely im is added after the name of Prophet Muhammad
(pbuh) to make it Muhammadim. In English translation they have even translated the name of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) as "altogether lovely", but in the Old Testament in Hebrew, the name of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is yet present.

John chapter 14 verse 16:
Gospel of John chapter 15 verse 26:Gospel of John chapter 15 verse 26:

"But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which
proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me."

Gospel of John chapter 16 verse 7:
Gospel of John chapter 16 verse 12-14:

"According to Islam's history, when Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him and his followers faced hostility from the people of Mecca (Paran), they had to leave the city. They fled to the City of "Yathrib" which was called later "Madina" where Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him continued to spread Islam to all of the Arabs and then later to the countries near by".

* your qoute above I am fully aware of and gave you this history before, it is a muslim belief not a bible one at all in any which way, can be attributed to Islam.


So basically there is no quote in bible text to the coming of Mohamed either by name or direct prophecy to his actions, unlike the prophecys of Jesus where it is foretold of his faimily line, ministry and death.
It is easy to use one or two bible qutes to interpret a multitude of things but this stretches a cryptic message to the extremes.
Unless of course you have nother biblical qoute Ive missed, there is non to Muhammad, and I dont recall Jesus expressing any mention of him coming either.

Try analysing the text I provided, it says this prophet will be born in Paran (Mecca), Mohammeds name is mentioned in king Of solomon as Mahammadim. There are lose more like the liberation of 10000 comapnions of Mecca which Bible foretells. Comforter is the same meaning as name mohammed. Greeks named this Prophet Parakletos, which means praiseworthy which is the same meaning for Mohammed.


This clip is taken from passionate of Christ, Jesus mentions Mohammeds name in aramaic as Munahma which in Syriac means Praised one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NDZxIIHb6w

Still no mention of the name Muhammad, and even if there was, why do Muslims accept the word of the Bible yet still refute the claim in that divine inspired scripture that Jesus was the son of God, not a Prophet.

Why do Muslims see Jesus as a prophet yet clearly he is guilty of blasphemy? The Danish newspaper was condemmed by Islam for didpicting Allah in cartoon images yet still nowhere near the insult that Jesus himself made by HIS own claims.

You can accept one or the other, either the Bible is inspired Holy scripture or Jesus is a fraud, having both makes for yet another man made and incredibly hypocritical religion worthy of no substance whatsoever.

And what of Muhammads taking of Mecca the slaughter in dooing so, no work of God no miraculous victory just a stonger army with Muhammad working alone, like I have said all man made religions are for the sole purpose of man dominating man by death.
Whilst the Bible stays unchanged Gods lawa is and always has been thou shalt not kill, do muslims just ignore this command or just dont like it?

[quote]Originally posted by Angiebabe
Still no mention of the name Muhammad, and even if there was, why do Muslims accept the word of the Bible yet still refute the claim in that divine inspired scripture that Jesus was the son of God, not a Prophet.[/b]

We cant accept something that was tampered by men, changing Gods word, the laughable scientific errors, pornographic materials as described in the Bible, the treatment of slaves and saying white is superior to black (People of Ham), Islam cannot attribute these things to almighty and the merciful, we believe these things were not their in original Bible but later on it was changed by men. But Muslims believe there still remains some passages which haven't been tampered with like the prophecy of mohammed.


Lol I can find various places in the Bible which says those who dont accept chrisitanity then kill all of them, men, children and women. These things are not in the quran accept killing is permissable during when underaatack or ware but under strict circumstances.

Now your being ignorant, and denying the prophecy of Paran (Mecca) liberated by the 10000 which is in the Bible as well as this prophecy fulfilled when Mohammed arrived with 10,000 mens, which in bible describes as saint and conquered Mecca, I think you have not read information i provided you. Mohammads name was mentioned in king of Solomon, in Aramaic Bible, even the word Muslim appears in Aramaic bible, the language of jesus.


Claim: Mohammed Is Mentioned In Song of Songs
Another claim is made that in the book Song of Songs (Also called Song of Solomon), the coming of Mohammed is prophesied.

The verse in question (translation is the author's) is as follows:

Song of Songs 5:16 His mouth is most sweet; and he is altogether lovely. This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem.
The assertion is that chapter 5 is a prophecy of a prophet yet to come. But, if we take a look at a transliteration of the Hebrew text we will see what the real principle of the matter is:

Chiku mamtakim v'khulo machamadim zeh dodi v'zeh re'i b'not yerushalayim.
If you look at the word "machamadim" we can start to see the issue. Mohammed is a name that comes from the Hebrew root of "lovely" or "cute" or "desirable" and as such, Muslims try to use the word "lovely" in each instance to refer to Mohammed. These Muslims are making it so we can't use our own language without it somehow being a prophecy. In Hebrew Mohammed is pronounced as machamad, remove the c it becomes in Arabic Mohammed. Just like Joseph in Arabic is pronounced as Yousef.

Islam is a monthiestic religion believing in one God which has no end and beginning, Jesus had a beginning, Jesus as well as Mohammed were men who came to deliver the message, Jesus only came to people of israel, he didn't come for every mandkind as stated in Bible and Quran, Mohammad the final prophet came for whole of humanity, and Quran is the final revelation of God.

Jesus using the word "Muslim" from Armaic bible in Luke 6:40:

Let us look at Luke 6:40 from my N.I.V. Bible "A student is not above his teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like his teacher."

Now taken from Aramaic Bible here it is in the language:

"Ein talmeed na'leh 'al rabbo; shekken kal adam she'MUSHLAM yihyeh k'rabbo."

Now Arabic translation of Luke 6:40 will be Translation in English: "No student can be above his teacher, but everyone that is a MUSLIM, can be as his teacher."

Important Note: The Hebrew word "Mushlam" comes from the root "Sh L M". "Shalom" which comes from the same root means "peace". The Arabic word "Muslim" comes from the root "S L M". "Salam" means "peace". "Salem" means "safe". Also taken from the Aramic Bible society online.

Just do a little bit of research Jesus was clearly a muslim and used the word Muslim which in Aramaic or Hebrew means Mushlam. To understand the Bible its best to learn to read hebrew, Jesus never spoke in english.

Ahmad changed to "Munahammana" and then to "Paraqleyta in Greek meaning the Praised one.


Mohammed fought in a war against tribes the Pagans of Mecca who were racist, idol worshippers, oppressors of their people, when he conquered mecca he did not kill any innocent human being, rather forgave the ones who tortured him and his people later on they converted to Islam.

Jesus spoke Aramiac, he was arabic/semetic. Not African, European, Or Desi (Pakistani, Indian, etc..). So making Jesus an identity just confuses you more after you realise facts, why becuase the media has installed on you what it wants you to be. In terms of politics.. Fighting for Jesus is not fighting for your identity, so stop being so stubborn and sticking to the point that "Oh muslims this that and the other, idenditfy and hog jesus just to become more Western". Jesus was a prophet in Islam come to speak the message of god, like the others, JESUS'S MESSAGE DOESNT SEEM TO BE WORKING EVIDENTLY END OF... mohammeds seems like is failing to work, thats why "everyone" is waiting for the next Messiah. in the bible he was something else, I DONT CARE!

dont come saying Mohammed Killed and Christanity is all about "Thou Shall Not Kill" bullcrap, "Christanity" killed and enslaved African slaves for over 300 years. Not to mention millions of people killed all over the world in the name of Colonization and Christianity.

So go get your facts right before you go spew your hatred bull crap on others, just to be accepted in "Western Society" by preaching Jesus this Jesus that. Jesus was aramiac than he was African, european, desi or chinese.

Im tired of double standards coming up here, just becuase you see it in the media you think its ok to pull your crap out.


sorry but that had to be said, some people clearly have agendas beyond there scope. should be pointed out. :banana:

Well said usaFtw, question to Angiebabe, what was Bible referring to when about the City of Paran conquered with him 10,000 saint. Which Prophecy and who is it talking about. We clearly se from Mohammeds history that when he conquered Mecca he came with 10,000 companions. Paran is said to in south Saudie arabia which is where the desert of mecca is located.

Yes according to language jesus spoke in was Aramaic/semetic language which is mainly spoken in Arabic.

What does all this mean to a none religious person?

If this thread was actually on subject- your original point that the Kabaa cube shrine of Mecca is the 'centre of the Earth' and so everyone should become a Muslim, is still rubbish- the centre of the Earth of course being the core.

Did you ever address this or will I have to sit through another 7 pages of religious quotations that mean absolutely nothing to me before I'll find out what the hell you meant when you said it was the centre of the Earth?

I showed from the Bible that Islam and the final Prophet was clearly prophecised in the Bible, his name was mention in Hewbrew and bible or Aramaic as Munahma and Machammadim in King of Solon in hebrew. Jesus used the Word "Muslim" as "Mushlam" and said "if you are good mushlam", the story of 10,000 saints with the he who conquer the land of Paran forom, yathreb ( medina) clearly describes when Prophet conquered Mecca and got with him 10,000 companions, who was Bible talking about. Paran is said to be in Mecca today, just searche but Chrisitans deny this. It was a reply by the to the poster who wanted me to show where mohammed was mentioned in the Bible. If think i'm blabbering then you can check it.:thumbs:

Nah it's ok, I'm not religious and wouldn't believe half of what I read in the bible anyway- it'd be like giving origin of the species to a diehard creationist :bigsmile:

Prophet Mohammed was also foretold in Hindu scripture even by name and foretells his history thousands of years earlier in their book, it also says Mohammed will come and speak the truth, this Prophecy was also confirmed by a famous hindu scholar Professor Pundit Vaid Parkash, that the scripture describes no one but Prophet Mohammed. You can see the book he did on this matter. http://www.answering-christianity.co...th_Freedom.htm

As the Quran said we have mentioned about him in their scriptures.

Bible is a miraculous Book but also tampered, just study look at those verse in the Bible then look into Wikipedia of Prophet Mohammeds history, you will se a clear prophecy. Furthermore just look at this short quote from Issaiah that talks about coming of this comforter:

It is mentioned in the book of Isaiah chapter 29 verse 12:

"And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned."

It is well-known in Islamic history Prophet was illerrate who could not read or write, he spoke what Angel revealed to him, which Quran means to recite. When Archangel Gabrail commanded Muhammad (pbuh) by saying Iqra - "Read", he replied, "I am not learned".

Just look at this verse, its kind of shocking.

"Just look at this verse, its kind of shocking."

No if you happen to believe it is all a load of old bollocks. There is no point quoting the bible to prove your point about the quran, as that is (imho) a load of bollocks too.

In fact, if the quran is the one true book to live your life by, then what are you doing quoting the bible to give it some validity? If the bible is not the "truth" then it must be a lie. So you are using a lie to give your "truth" some validity.
What gives?

If you are going to reply, can you please do so with your own words and not quotes from a book that has no meaning to me.

Farhad- I told you I wasn't religious, so why keep sending me u2u's- saying 'read this passage' or whatever!?

You won't convert me! :joker:

I already asked you to explain your points without quoting a load of religious passages that I don't believe or care about and you immediately wrote a load of stuff about the bible!

Is it a joke?

"And when Jesus son of Mary said: O Children of Israel! Lo! I am the messenger of Allah unto you, confirming that which was (revealed) before me in the Torah, and bringing good tidings of a messenger who cometh after me, whose name is Ahmad (the Praised One)." (Qur'an 61:6)

Quran says Jesus said there is a messenger coming after him mentioned in Bible. and if you go back to the Bible, Jesus did say someone will come after him, and person he described exactly matches Mohammed. Jesus also said that prophet will be a descendent of Ishmael, and muslims believe Mohammed was descendatn of ishmael. the word Muslim is also mentioned hidden in the aramaic Bible. Sounds miraculous, and Jesus said in tat language he was a mushlam.

You misunderstood me, yes I did say Bible was distorted but also said their some parts of the Bible hasn't changed, like the prophecy of the final Prophet.

The Kabaa has significance in other religions than Islam. It was a Pagan shrine... then Muhammad destoryed the idols in it except for Al'alah the Moon God of the Quarish.... which became the basis for the Islamic religion.

No, the Kabaa was built by Abraham according to Islam. Only the one corrner stone that is black was supposed to be a meterorite... but even that is false.

Kieth moore hasn't won a nobel prize. He hasn't made any scientific achivement notable tbh.


Have you ever read the Qur'an?

"The infidels should not think that they can get away from us. Prepare against them whatever arms and weaponry you can muster so that you may terrorize them." Qur'an 8:59

"Those who reject [Islamic] Faith, Allah will not forgive them nor guide them to any path except the way to Hell, to dwell therein forever. And this to Allah is easy." Qur'an 4:168

"I shall terrorize the infidels. So wound their bodies and incapacitate them because they oppose Allah and His Apostle." Qur'an:8:12

Thousands of verses more like that bro from the Qur'an.