Be specific.

At the moment, we know that he himself claimed to be working for ISIS and ISIS have claimed responsibility and we know that he was already known to the police as a radical.

We also know that the police, FBI, Governor, Homeland Security and and Predident have all said it was an Islamic terror attack.

What specifically would convince you that he is an ISIS terrorist? Do you even agree that he is an Islamic terrorist? If you don't, why should your opinion be more compelling to me than the FBI and the police?

I haven't claimed any such opinion as more compelling than the FBI or the police.

I have not claimed he is ISIS or not.

I am not claiming facts that I have no evidence of.

That would be you. And when you've been called out you fixate on a non existent point until your humiliation is lost a few pages back.

It is a fact he is an ISIS terrorist. Unless you can give me a reason to doubt the word of him and ISIS and law enforcement then I will accept their word. You are in a tiny minority of people trying to deny this obvious ISIS terrorist attack. I have no idea why you would wish to absolve them in this way.

Do you agree that he is an Islamic terrorist Marsh?

I haven't done any such thing. You're deflecting.

Do you agree that he is an Islamic terrorist?

For the thousandth time, I'm going to wait for the full report and evidence to be presented. Not feed into the ridiculous frenzy over half truths and the words of a murderer.

The FBI say he was. Why would I doubt their word? They aren't media.

According to the latest reports I've read the FBI have stated that they haven't actually found any links between the shooter and Isis apart from the shooter's claims.

Isis want the credit for this attack, they want to be known for dealing the biggest blow against America since 9/11 and I'm going to be very reluctant to give them what they want without solid evidence.

I get the feeling that even if there was solid evidence that it was because he was from ISIS, a lot of people would still refuse to believe it because they just want to use this as an excuse to hate on American gun laws.

People using this thread to argue about gun law regulations. I just find it really disrespectful. Then again this is tibb so I shouldn't be surprised.

No they don't?

why

I think there have been other posts in this thread displaying a lot less respect than those who have discussed American gun laws, but I won't get into that.

I think people who have strong opinions on the anti/pro gun debate are right to debate it, but I also see why some posters want to mourn and not let the thread derail to that subject because it's such a controversial topic in itself.

Why would the shooter having a connection to Isis in any way affect people's views on gun laws? Chances are the shooter used a gun that he purchased legally so his affiliation doesn't really matter.

I just don't want to give Isis the credit unless there's a proven link because it's what they want.

I don't think it's a bad thing that people are hating on the gun laws considering how many hundreds of lives have been taken in these all too frequent massacres alone. If there were tighter gun control then America probably wouldn't find themselves facing a new mass murder spree every few months.

Gun control works, look at the UK and Australia. We've only had one major shooting incident since Dunblane and the gun control laws were put in place and Australia hasn't had any since 1996 when they suffered a similar crime and introduced their own gun control laws. You can't blame people for wanting things to change, you can't blame people for being annoyed at innocent people dying because the powers that be refuse to change the status quo.

well donald trump, warned and predicted, what will happen, and its happened, and the lefties are closing their eyes and putting there fingers in there ears, and who they attack are not the dumb terrorists, but Mr Trump,

I think both sides are guilty here.....you have 2 massive problems conflating, namely guns and terrorism. guns kill way more than terrorists in america but both are evil. gun murders have fallen a lot since the 90s per head. but risen the last few years. the gun death rates in europe are miniscule , but several nations especially in south america are way worse than america including brazil, honduras, south africa etc

He didn't predict anything, it was already happening.

Btw an armed was headed to gay pride but the police stopped him. Good thing too. This happening twice in such a short sort of time would have been too much. He wasn't Muslim he was white.

But white people aren't terrorists? They're the good guys. :conf:

Ask that idiot Trump. He's the one that asked for Obama to resign because he didn't call the Club shooting a radical Islam act. I don't even think he's mentioned the thwarted gay pride attack attempt. Just like when he went on about the Muslim wife and husband shooting but he said nothing about the White dude that shot the clinic. Sigh I loathe him and his followers.

Owen Jones walks out after reporters downplay homophobia in this act.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/ow...-a7078891.html

The reporter is saying but this is not worst than the Paris attacks but that's not the point Owen was making. This clip is the equivalent of "black lives matter" and people replying with yes but All lives matter.

Owen Jones came across like a petulant child in that video to be honest.

Just read something about how it's possible that some of those killed may not have been "out" to their parents, friends, or had the chance to transition, etc. and I can't think of many things more heartbreaking than having your deepest secret exposed, or journey cut short, because you've been killed out and being happy. Just hope that the families/friends either did already know and support them, or that if they didn't, there's no 'change' in their perception of their lost ones... perhaps it's morbid to consider it, but stranger things have been thought of the LGBT community.

Gun control in the UK did not lower the homicide rate. The year 1996 was the last year that guns were legal in the UK but 2010 was the only year since then where homicide rates were less than 1996. It's true that death by guns lowered but stabbings skyrocketed.

Death by guns is the only statistic anyone on here seems to care about. No one cares about murders with other weapons. I would think that reduction in murder and homicides in general would be the true statistics that people should care about but that isn't the case.

Meh. I don't blame him. They seemed determined to portray the attack as one on the West in general, rather than a specific attack on gay people. Basically telling him that he isn't more affected by this than them, just because he's gay, when to me it seems clear this attack, whether in the name of IS or not, was motivated by homophobia.

I feel very very very sorry that 50 of my dear community members have passed away. I consider LGBT community like my family so that hurt me deeply.

What needs to happen is that we need to get rid of isis thats it.

Isis attacks to everyone including muslims, it would be so easy to get rid of them if big countries do something about it but what do they do, they just say "ugh i am sorry for your loss, isis is evil" well if you dont like it then do something about it.

I can totally understand the gun discussion surrounding this.

The murderer was deemed a threat enough by the FBI that he was banned from flying but he was able to purchase a rifle and a hand gun? that's messed up.

This needs to be a time to talk about gun laws in America though
Obviously we pay our respects to the victims and send love to their friends and family but that won't prevent an act like this happening again
Something very serious has to be done and peope talking about it could increase the chance, but still my doubtful anything will change

Unfortunately they're not that easy to get rid of because even if you killed every ISIS fighter in the Middle East the ideology would still be there within the Muslim community.It will be a long battle and Islam itself will be the thing in the end that is most effective in combatting these extreme views from within.

Changing US gun laws won't stop terrorist attacks in Europe,Britain,Other middle eastern countries or even in America.Even if guns were harder to get then they would still easily get them or use explosives.

But still if world fought isis we would have less problems because they wouldnt have the strenght to attack. But instead we are letting them alone so they can get stronger and stronger

Gun laws won't stop terrorism but they can cut back on so so many killings in America
There's been 998 mass shootings in Ameroca since the sandy hook attack, and that number is probably 0 or 1 in all western gun free countries

"Lets not ban guns because some people still have guns and kill people" logic is the stupidest logic ever

It kind of goes hand in hand with each other considering the mass shooting though no?

I feel it's important to draw a distinction between an ISIS member and and ISIS sympathiser. So far, is sounds like this man was the latter. A "Lone Wolf" hateful individual who planned and carried out his attack on his own, driven mostly by his own personal hatred of homosexuality - a hatred that probably THEN lead him to identify with ISIS ideology. As opposed to an ISIS "member" who planned an atrocity as part of a cell under the instruction of ISIS superiors.

ISIS will take credit for anything and that's why it's important to be accurate in reporting what has actually happened... There's a REASON they want to take credit, and they should not be allowed to every time a lone psychopath decides to mention IS, Islam or Allah during their attack. It gives people the false impression that they are organising these events, which makes them more terrifying, and so achieves their goal: to spread terror.

...although I completely agree and it's the difference between, 'pledging allegiance' to a terrorist group and being directed by them in an act of terror...I do think that maybe it'll never be known for sure because the FBI have 'cleared' him twice, I believe ..?...as having any connection with ISIS...so would they also ever admit that they completely messed up there and that he was in fact a part of ISIS...

RIP to all victims :( :(

and dont forget the role of religion in legitimising his hatred

1) there is 100s of terrorist organisations why focus on ISIS?

2) they are impossible to kill because we dont know who they are, where they are and more importantly their next step