What utter nonsense is the first line of the last paragraph....?

Which line and what are you struggling with Parmy, I'll do my best to break it down into an easier format.

Skilll based events.....what isn't an issue?

I don't think anyone is doing that. Talking about hormone levels ensuring a more level playing field isn't defining women by said hormones.

On the contrary, I've spent a lot of time on here advocating that women shouldn't be defined by their physical attributes. Many women on here disagree and are happy to be defined by their body parts and reproductive organs, which is sad to see as it feels quite reductive but each to their own.

Judge em by the pusssy..




Soz...me bad.

I'd strongly argue that it's less reductive than basing the classification on a nebulous/subjective individual feeling that's (in every example I've ever seen) firmly rooted in the gendered societal expectations and norms that have been historically repressive of women.

Loosely put, in my opinion, there are only two types of meaningful gender difference;

1) literal physical differences between the sexes and the social effect of those differences and

2) the social effect of being raised in a patriarchal society.


Neither apply to trans women, and thus the gender identity of transness I can only put down to a type of gender stereotyping that shouldn't exist and should never be further legitimised.

I have agreed previously that sometimes it can problematically be tied to stereotyping (cis people are guilty of doing this too...) however based on what you've just said, I question how many trans people you know and have had real conversations with about it.

I don't often agree with you, but I do agree with this post.

I think that opinion comes from misunderstanding the difference between gender identity and gender expression. I totally get how gender expressions can sometimes manifest in insulting ways and as a result it seems like it's rooted stereotypes, but I think there should be some consideration for the confusing and complex nature of living as a trans woman or man within. society that is largely always questioning your legitimacy.

Society is a judgement beast and people on this site time and time again has proven as an example just how quick they are to devalue someone's own identity because, of course, they know better. If a trans woman was to dress is stereotypically more masculine clothes, many people would absolutely question the legitimacy of them 'wanting to be a woman'. Wanting to prevent this, and with the feeling that dressing overtly 'as a woman would' will make them feel more womanly, this can lead to this overcompensating in a way that not only seems to embolden stereotypes but also does it badly. I do think for the large majority of trans women this applies to, it's unintentional and it's a way of settling into their life.

Gender identity, however, is internal and farm more intrinsic to someone's body and sex, which is where someone's 'feeling in the wrong body' comes from. There is some evidence to suggest a trans persons brain aligns more in line with the preferred gender than the one they are assigned based on their biological make up - that is to say they exhibit the subtle differences that exist between male and female brains.

So while transness isn't tied into gender stereotypes, sometimes the expression exhibits as such.

Women don't need anyone to redefine them. We know what we are lol. Nobody I've seen has asked others to advocate for them. We can advocate for ourselves.

Consider we're being instructed we should think of ourselves differently, but yet, we have to support the self-identification of other people with zero questions whatsoever. None of that makes any logical sense.

There's a difference between a woman that looks butch, to a woman that might be biologically male.:laugh:

Maybe Martina was just the better player tbf.:laugh:

Just like how poor Raducanu has players that are better than her, unfortunately.

Everyone gets defined by their physical attributes to some extent.

It's Human nature.

Imane Khelif is biologically female

end of



muslims can't be trans, they just can't



my point was more that you just have women who have more muscle, masculine qualities


more examples: Williams sisters (Serena & Venus) as if they look any feminine

or Simona Halep, whom even underwent breast reduction surgery to enhance her performances on court



the only exception of a successful sportswoman in the tennis, Maria Sharapova i guess (but then again she used doping, and lets not go further into that)



Raducanu isn't that good of a player honestly, she's more an influencer sort of type :fan:



my current personal favourite Jessica Pegula, doesn't look too masculine for my liking, (she's quite HOT tbh, but that is my personal taste perhaps) her advantages are more coming from quite a good amount of wealth, which she cleverly invests into having her own hard court, clay court at her mansion in Florida + a lot of years in the doubles also made her the experienced player she is today, and she transitions that quite decently into her singles game, from lower ranked (below top 700 even) to the top 10 ranked she is today

+ passion for sports runs in the Pegula family, that also helps a lot

incorrect

says you


and i say otherwise, that's the fun thing of a free world, where we all have different opinions

The only fun thing in the free world is that the morons stilll facilitating this nonsense can be ridiculed by the more sane members of society.

again

incorrect

Personally I hope that you're right, because it means that all of Khelif's fights were legit, which as someone that loves competitions I do want to see a fair contest, or as fair as humanly possible anyway.

And yeah Raducanu isn't the best Tennis player, but like with Birmingham City Football Club I will keep rooting for her to win major events.:laugh:

I'm not going to keep going on too much with this debate (it's going in circles, which is fine but a clear indication that there's nothing more to be gained from it either way) however I pedantically do have to pick this one up because it's just a baseline misunderstanding of statistics.

If the percentage of sports accolades won out of all women's sports is higher than the percentage of trans women in the general population, then that's statistical evidence of a category advantage. It doesn't matter if it's only a few. If it's a percentage that's disproportionate to the ratio in the whole population, then it's a statistically significant advantage. That's just plain basic scientific method.

I refer the learned gentleman to the title of the thread

Did you miss the post where the test was leaked and it is confirmed Kalief is biologically male, I dont think you did Mock.... but you are finding it hard to come to terms with the fact that the IOC completely ignored this and allowed women to be put in danger on live tv due to not caring about women and only caring about looking inclusive

Boxer Imane Khelif Has XY Chromosomes And "Testicles"
 

This ‘person’ was competing in men’s events two years earlier





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Boxer Imane Khelif Has XY Chromosomes And "Testicles"
 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Is that test confirmed to be Khelif's?

Because tbh nowadays I never know what to believe when it comes to what the Media reports.

So Khelif is actually Trans? Because I'm getting confused on if she's Trans or Intersex.:laugh:

This is what I mean when I say that the Media makes it hard to know what the truth even is half of the time.

trans is a thought and intersex is a condition

both are either male or female

Why do you think he was banned by the WBO and why the ban was uncontested ...:whistle:

I understand that, but no stats have yet been provided.

The truth is, trans women, if they were at an insane advantage would DOMINATE their sport. They would win literally everything. That isn't happening. They might win the odd match or a swim or a game, or they might beat a record (records are being beaten all the time) but there is no trans woman continuously dominating their sport time after time after time. They win some and they lose lsome ike every other participant.

Not all women are the same as you and want the same as you. Not all women want to be defined by their body.

I'm not calling for redefinition, I'm calling for a relaxing of how women (in fact, people in general) are defined so women aren't pigeonholed by their uterus.

Nobody is asking you to think yourself differently, you can think of your womanhood how you want, but other women can too and if that isn't tied to their womb or their vagina then that's also fine was my point.

The only people instructing women how they should define themselves are people like JK Rowling and those supporting the Supreme Court ruling.

Whines about people saying the word "cis" but calls someone who was born and raise female in a country that doesn't recognise trans people in any capacity "he" without seeing any actual evidence or proof... can't work out if that's dumb or just hateful or maybe it's both.

I'm done here.

Have you not seen what’s happening on tje states ?

Loads of protests at sporting events across the country and its only gonna get worse now ..

The other ‘young ladies’ are refusing to even share the podium with them


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Tbh the reason I referred to him as a 'he' is due to you continually ignoring my requests to stop referring to cis women, cis men, we know what you mean we dont need the prefix, you dont care to accommodate me, so whats good for the goose etc and now who is whining? I could say its hateful or dumb or both to ignore female members requests to quit with the cis nonsense but you carried on anyway as you know best apparently

and what do you mean NO PROOF, so the WBO just banned on a whim did they?

there are no trans people in countries with islam as main religion

How come you're quite accepting of that? Insisting we all accept it, but cutting Islam slack? Sounds like a double standard to me.

Maybe we have different opinions here; I don't think it has to be "an insane advantage" to be unacceptable and (frankly) misogynistic "collateral damage"... Any statistical advantage should rule out professional competition. Steroids and other performance enhancing drugs don't necessarily confer an "insane" advantage and "winning literally everything", but they're not considered to be acceptable in professional sports for a reason; the advantages that they do give result in unfair victories, and not harmless victories, others who had no such advantage are pushed off of podiums and down the rankings.

The fact that there's a lack of good data is another part of the issue itself, separate but utterly nefarious; several groups and organisations (both officially organised and layperson online campaign groups who would consider themselves trans allies) have threatened, harassed, doxxed and bullied academics for attempting to gather this data and statistics, and done the same to sociologists and psychologists attempting to study the roots and potential social effects of issues surrounding transgenderism, declaring it "hateful", "offensive" and "unacceptable" whilst similtaneously funding and publishing dubious research and bogus biological "science" that's agenda-driven and nowhere near to being unbiased or borne of simple academic curiosity. So the lack of statistics is for a reason, and the data that is available is highly suspect. This was allowed to go on for the better part of a decade but has ended up being a shot in the foot. It's backfired spectacularly, and now even the pursuit of that knowledge (let alone any reliable data) is going to be out of reach for a generation. That's the legacy of stonewall. Utter disaster, ten steps backwards, and a backlash that plays right into the hands of right wing politics in general.

It makes me despair, honestly.

LOL Cherie I am using cis as an adjective to refer to a collective. I’ve told you before if I refer to cis it’s generally, and not aimed at you specifically if that’s not how you identify. Why do you insist on thinking I’m talking about you if you don’t identify as a cis woman? If someone talks about women named Mary do you tell them to stop calling you Mary or do you understand that they’re not talking about you because they know your name isn’t Mary?

Additionally, you don’t complain when I use the word ‘trans women” because it doesn’t apply to you, which is funny because the meaning of the word trans is literally the opposite of the word cis and therefore makes the usage of both words legitimate.

You on the other hand have referred to someone specific, someone born as a female and raised as a female as a MAN. What I do by saying cis and what you do by misgendering someone are two very different things. You must know that.

At the very most she might be intersex or have some other biological anomaly, but that doesn’t mean she’s a man. Do you really think she was born male and then everyone in her life, in a Muslim country, colluded and lied about it and changed her sex and then said Muslim country sent a trans person to the Olympics? Yeah, sounds likely.

Are there any women on this thread who "identify as a cis woman"? Anyone? Anyone at all?

Y’all have such a problem with anyone identifying as anything they want so unlikely

Have I been referring to any women specifically on this thread as cis women, or have I been speaking about the entire population? If you feel it doesn't apply to you, then that's fine I am not talking about you.

I'll say it again though... cis just means the opposite of trans. It's not an insult. It's an adjective. It's not the same as calling someone born female and raised female a male because they may have a genetic abnormality. Ew.