I'll watch the video after, thanks CeeCee.

The only thing that bothers me about Pam Hicks gunning for Terry is that she only started that when they were going through a divorce, it kind of stinks of revenge, plus her daughter totally denies the fact that he abused her as well (and she doesn't even seem to get on too well with him) Pam comes across as a bit mental to me.

Also, what bothers me about the metal community taking up their cause and implying that they were targeted just because they wore black etc is simplifying things a bit imo, It was more the fact that Damien had serious mental problems, had been locked up for this and had been known to be violent etc

Something that isn't brought up very much either I've noticed is the Blue Candle wax found on Christopher Byers clothes, they found blue candles in Damiens bedroom. It is a bit of an odd thing to find on the victim and alot less likely to have been secondarily transferred like the hair

People that use their gender along with over issues to put a point over and make themselves relevant instead of misunderstood and in need of help

Sam Fox: "As a woman..." teas

Just reading through this one now, ****ing hell, what is up with all these people trying to hide what they were doing that night, seems like every person I read about has shaky alibis or keeps changing their stories

So he apparently confessed to killing the boys with Damien but then confessed to killing the boys with Terry?

This is another guys opinion of that Terry Hobbs theory, i tend to agree with him

http://trenchreynolds.com/tag/l-g-hollingsworth/


They're prepared to go with the alleged confession of LG Hollingsworth (who's now dead and can't defend himself) to a rapist looking for a deal but not the numerous confessions, in person to Police officers and his solicitor by Jesse Misskelley. I mean I'm not saying that the WM3 couldn't be innocent but it's kind of hypocritical of those people who cried unfair at the WM3 convictions to then lead some sort of a witch hunt against someone on even flimsier evidence


The Byers though :worry: You could see clear as day that Mark was nuts from the documentary

http://www.arktimes.com/arkansas/the...27&storyPage=2

Byers has a nasty history :

By 1987, Byers had been married, fathered two children, been divorced, and remarried. A former neighbor, who asked not to be identified, said she reported Byers about that time to child abuse authorities, because "he was whipping Christopher [who was two at the time] so badly I was afraid for his life." The woman said she reported the incidents again during the investigations into the murders, but was never asked to testify.

That same year, Byers was arrested and charged with terroristic threatening for an assault on his former wife. John Griffm, of the Marion Police Department, wrote in his report that "a concened neighbor...advised that she heard a woman screaming [and that] there were two small kids outside by themselves, unattended."

When he entered the house, Griffin wrote, he found Byers' ex-wife on the floor and Byers brandishing an electric shock device known as a Power Zapper. He said Byers behaved arrogantly, and that the woman was upset and begged him not to leave.

"Mr. Byers acted strange," the report noted. "A few minutes he would calm down

and talk normal, but then all of a sudden, he would get arrogant again, advising me that he was the father and he was going to take the kids. However, he could not produce any papers showing that he had custody of the kids.

"He also became upset when I advised him that I was going to keep the Power Zapper, which he wanted back. I could not smell any type of intoxicant on his breath, [but] he appeared to have been either on some type of medication or intoxicant [by] the manner in which he was acting."


Going to watch Paradise Lost 2 tonight

Insufferable.

You want to impress me? Drive yourself to school tomorrow, you little sod.

The Terry link is interesting. Although it sounds far fetched, in one of Aaron's earlier confessions he said he saw 5 men and they were doing bad things that women and men do- with their mouths they were kissing etc..basically implicating sex.
All his confessions are inconsistent and change, and as of 2013 he says he fabricated it and that he was mostly coerced. But still
In his first ever confession he implicated BYERS and a knife but later the police made him and his mum sign that they would never reveal this. He also mentioned that he saw the case on TV which could have of course influenced his later confessions where he's implying WM3. AND he said there was a black man present- it could have either been that Bojangles was involved OR he saw them do it, tried to stop it, but was apparently shot because apparently there could have been a gun involved.
Aaron said he was also hog tied like the others (although in a way different to how the boys were found tied though) but he managed to get away somehow. He said one of the WM3 touched him too.
One of his confessions
http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/project...tatements.html

Did you know that after both sides rested their case in court, a necklace that's supposedly Damien's was found and on it there was Jason blood, his and Steven Branch (the murdered boy) but they never used it in court.

About Pam, maybe that's why she was divorcing him in the first place, because she realised he did it, so it was brought up during the divorce.



Oh my god this case is so confusing the more you read. Literally it could be anyone :bawling:

Yeah Aarons confessions were strange but I wonder was his mother given some sort of deal to get Aaron to say something? Apparently how his first statement came about was when his mother called into the Police station about a case involving herself where her employers had accused her of credit card fraud.....she was never charged with it in the end and the Police ended up with an eye witness to the murders in her son, that all seems very convenient/coincidental don't you think? God, the whole bloody town seem dodgy, don't they? As for Mr Bojangles being shot after witnessing the murders? You'd imagine he would have reported it if that were the case

I don't know why I feel like Terry wasn't involved but I don't. After reading about Byers dad though, he seems completely warped and like luring young people to private spots for violence and torture were something he was partial to

Here is an interesting video about what they left out of Paradise Lost.

Sigh

Tim Burton says diversity is not needed-bye :wavey: *checked off list underneath Clint Eastwood*

..^^...so ok, you ladies got my interest and I watched Paradise Lost/part 1 last night...obviously the start was so hard with the killings, those poor children and what was done to them...:sad:..I mean, words just can't and surely a definition of evil in the true sense....




...I don't know, atm my thoughts are that they're guilty...those were killings that would have brought so much sound, both from the killers and the children themselves in their terror and torture and the 3 were in the area so they would have heard something, so they must have killed them because they haven't given any accountable detail of having heard anything but not being the ones who did it..?...


...what was said after Jessie's trial and sentencing, that the 'normally experienced' would be protesting of innocence..that would be the reaction to a life imprisonment but he was still saying that he was guilty when he was taken down..?...


...I found so many 'odd' things about the families in general...it was only really one of the fathers..(I'm not quite with all of the names atm..)..who was saying things that could be related to and connected with, like..'what did my child see being done to the others/what did he feel/and I wasn't there for him in his terror', type thing...which is what would haunt a parent, those moments of extreme fear/physical pain and how they had been helpless to prevent that or to protect their child...I mean it would just be unbearable for a parent but other than the father vocalising those things, what was mostly seen was anger but even then, just not with an emotion I would imagine and also no other emotions of grief...(other than when the one mum left the courtroom with the graphic pics and details..)...I don't know, some of the parents just seemed 'odd'....I mean you would feel anger but there would be so much other visible grief as well/I mean what was done to their children was horrendous....it popped into my head later of the images of Meredith Kercher's family and their visible emotional pain....

...anyways, it was mainly Jessie's story with the first part as it was his trial and crikey, how odd his family as well...well actually his girlfriend..(I presume she was his girlfriend of the time...)...but saying that she hadn't realised how much she loved him until then..?...I mean huhhhhhhhh, what the heck....your boyfriend confesses to this sort of horrific killing of three young children/well his part in it of holding the boy and then you realise your love for that person..?.../I'm actually still trying to process that in my head...also his mum, I have the feeling that he wouldn't testify at the other trial because then he was admitting his guilt once and for all and his mum was having none of it...even though he was still saying that he was part of the killings after his sentencing...that it would be fear of his mum and losing her support/type thing..and his girlfriend's support as well probably...


...anyway, I'll watch part 2 at the weekend or later...

Oh yay Ammi is on board too :love:

CeeCee thanks for that video, I'm going to watch it on my lunchbreak

So I watched Paradise Lost 2 last night, now I know the Documentary is pretty biased (ala making a Murderer) but God that Mark Byers is a very strange and scary man. Everything he does seems like an act like he's preaching and everytime he starts talking about Christopher he makes it about himself which too, is very weird. The whole teeth marks, him having lost his teeth after the murders and giving different reasons as to how he lost them seemed pretty damning, plus his less than savoury rap sheet also, the type of things he's done in the past seem odd. Like one time he was driving around with a teenage boy (a non relative, don't know why he was driving around with him) and the boy had words with a group of other teenagers and Mark got involved brought them all down to some "private" area and told the two boys to fight it out, he gave the boy who he was with a pocket knife and told him to keep it closed but use it to hit him, they left the boy unconscious and later when he was arrested he told the Police Officer that he thought what he did was right. Also, an old neightbour had called child services on him when Christopher was 2 because he was "spanking" him so badly she thought he was going to kill him. Plus his new neighbours after the murders got a restraining order against him cos he "spanked" their 5 year old son. He was arrested for using a kind of electric stunner on his first wife and got angry with the police officer when he said he couldn't have it back :/ Not to mention his next wife (Christophers mother) dying in odd circumstances

Moving on from him though, i am curious to see what Paradise Lost 3 is going to have in store and why they decide to move onto Terry next as the most viable suspect, they came down hard on Mark in paradise Lost 2 and as interesting as I find all this i do find it hypocritical for them to do that considering they're complaining about the WM3 being treated unfairly

Also Ammi, tbh the whole town seem pretty odd. In actual fact Damien and his family seem like the most sane :laugh:

It's hard to know who's telling the truth. I'd read somewhere (or maybe it was said in PL) that Jessie did a polygraph and passed it but that the Police told him he failed and that's when he confessed but this video says he did fail hhmmm

I hadn't heard the shoelace from an adults shoe part before. If everything in that video is true then that's slamming evidence that they did it imo....but is it true?, you hear so many stories contradicting eachother

very Interesting, atleast this one fact is proven to be true ^

Michael Moores parents (who seem the most sane tbqh) are still convinced that the WM3 did it. Also Pam thought it was the WM3 up until she divorced Terry and Mark only changed his mind to take the heat off himself imho

I'm back to thinking it was the WM3 i think.......I still have to watch part 3 though, also I will give West of Memphis a look although I know how biased that will be since Damien was actually involved in making it :laugh:

...I watched the second part of Paradise Lost yesterday/Damien and Jason's trial...surely when they're tried separately as Jessie was then the trial starts to become a formality because how could they have ever been found innocent when he was found guilty for his part..?...anyways, I still think they're guilty..even more so really, I found Damien quite cold and chilling/emotionless/hollow...in the courtroom when he was just looking into the mirror and combing his hair/'grooming himself', that was very creepy...just so detached from what was actually happening around him and the enormity of it..and also when he and Jason were talking about when the police came to their home, it all just seemed like a game or something/quite unsettling...although his words were ok, I didn't see any emotion to match those words when he was talking about his son...and when he said ' I kinda like it, people will be talking about me for years to come…I’ll be like the West Memphis boogeyman '.../chilling...


...I take it that no similar murders were committed over the years of their imprisonment..and would someone commit such a horrific crime as a 'one off thing'...unlike something like a crime of passion for instance... so that would make me think it was them as well..that there were no more such killings as the killers were in prison....anyways, will watch Part 3 over the weekend but yeah, I still think they're guilty and I found Damien just so detached and lacking in 'human' (qualities/emotions..)...

a thing that irritates me, is that i feel like i'm being ignored, but i do want to chat with someone :(

Yes the whole losing his teeth thing after they analyzed teeth marks on the body is too weird. Mark Byers was just over preaching too much. I agree with Damien that it was like he was acting, doing what a parent is supposed to do. A parent's grief never goes away, but the level of drama in the way you handle things goes down. Even Pam calmed down after a while. He was just always ready to perform. The issue with his wife dying some time later aswell is suspicious. I don't believe she just died of a broken heart. What's interesting is after that decade long of ranting about WM3, not too long ago he's now seen linking arms with Damien in a premiere. What, all that rage went away? I know Damien was pointing the finger at both Byers and Terry but maybe now they're just pointing the finger at Terry. Or maybe Byers and WM3 were in it together all along who knows.

With Pam and Byers. Maybe these parents are now just after publicity which is disgusting.
http://i.imgur.com/fAyhmpY.jpg

Yes he was creepy. The things he said, how detached he seemed but I don't want to judge him on that alone otherwise I would be like those people at the time supposedly 'witch hunting' the three because they were different.

However, he had mental health issues. There is something called exhibit 500 which has documents about his mental health. Some of the things on there are pretty creepy. But the way Damien explains his demeanour now, about then, is that he had faith in the justice system and that there was no way they would have been found guilty if they didn't do anything. He did have grandieuse complex then. His west memphis boogeyman comment is creepy but if he really was guilty he wouldn't have said that while professing his innocence at the same time.

Jason and Damien seemed pretty sure of themselves at the beginning, like you said when they were laughing at the cops coming to their house, but as the trial went on you can tell it was starting to sink in that they might actually go down for this. Especially Jason, he was so drained. Did you see the way he shook his head when that guy lied under oath that Jason had confessed to him? He was lying. He had heard tales from other sources.


Jessy's confessions-He's saying he was coerced. They spend a longer time talking before they actually started recording so knowing how cops work, maybe he was telling them something else, they weren't happy but only began recording when he told them what they wanted to hear.

Have you looked into Terry Hobbs? They found his DNA on a shoelace tied on the boys.

A little boy called Aaron said he saw 5 men in the woods. 4 having sex, 1 black man (possibly Mr Bojangles) and that the other three boys stumbled on them that's why they were killed. Years later, not too long ago a convicted rapist said one of the men confessed that there was a sex ring in the woods and they killed the boys. He managed to escape.

The necklace they supposedly claim is Damien's looks different than what Damien actually wore.


I was wondering what happened to Damien's son. Apparently the mother and son moved away because she didn't want to be in the spotlight or expose her son to this. She remarried and has girls. Some say Damien still sees his son some say he doesn't. The mother always said if she thought he was the tiny bit guilty he would never see his son again.


Matching tattoos with Johnny Depp. The other day Dave Navaro tweeted him

http://i.imgur.com/cIn5JxV.jpg


''Damien Echols fooled you all'' but the comments are more interesting.
http://trenchreynolds.com/2011/08/22...ooled-you-all/

Just finished Paradise Lost 3. Jeez Byers is gross, so transparent that he's only backing Echols and co now to take the spotlight off himself. I mean he sat through the original trial and was 100% convinced that they were guilty but now all of a sudden he's condemning the state for convicting them at all? Please ugh Both him and Pam couldn't have been that convinced originally but now completely convinced in the opposite direction, I mean ok maybe over time they might have had some doubts but surely not enough to be ok with campaigning for and putting your arms around the guys who may have done that to your children? Even if it was only a slight chance that they might have

On a side note though I have to say do find Jason the most believable and likeable of them all so much so I was even wondering if it were possible that he wasn't involved but Damien was?

The thing about Aarons statement though is if that 5 men/sex ring thing is true he would have known that Terry was Stevies step dad and would have been able to tell them that, wouldn't he? Aaron isn't a very reliable witness I think, I reckon that whole thing was made up. I doubt those men would have allowed him to get away and then go on to murder the remaining boys with a witness on the loose

As of 2013 he said he fabricated the WM3 testimony. We don't know if he would know Terry but he did implicate Byers in his first statement. He implicated WM3after watching tv.

Louis Walsh

Byers? Really? Still though I doubt he saw anything at all that day

You'll find this interesting
http://m.arktimes.com/arkansas/they-...ent?oid=964537

This is both heartbreaking and creepy. Heartbreaking because the lad is clearly distraught-a lot different than how he was when he went in. This is around the time he claims he was being raped

..I've watched all three Paradise lost now...yeah CeeCee, I know what you mean about (Damien especially) being judged by some because he had black hair/wore black clothes and had tattoos etc because that's stereotyping someone who has individuality but it's more how cold he appears to me and how detached, almost like he's a 'hollow'/emotionless person...and with Aaron..?..I'm just really not convinced with his disclosures, especially as he mentions 'Mr Bojangles' as well/a 'black man' being one of the five men he saw...because it feels more like with small town gossip etc and things that he must have heard discussed, that he more likely had lots of information being absorbed/maybe dreams about the killings even..?..and more in his imagination...he could have believed that he actually saw something but in reality didn't...I mean it was all so gruesome that it seems quite feasible that there were many 'scary thoughts' with other children at the time but him believing his were 'real' as an experience...


...Niamh, I actually that that I had missed a bit because of Terry Hobbs and his sudden turnaround in support for them, that's really so unbelievably odd...


...the necklace, CeeCee...that's pretty damning for Damien...anyways, my feelings are still that they're guilty...I know it said that they would have probably been acquitted with a retrial, using expressions like probably and most likely but the 'new' evidence had been dismissed so I can't really see that either...how weird a plea though with the North Carolina V Afford ruling/I'm innocent but will plead guilty...that feels so bizarre to me...that, that exists....Damien had drunk someone's blood which is another creepy thing...and also tattood/or cut rather, his girlfriends name into his arm so he hade 'knife control skills'..?...which was mentioned in the trial by the expert witness, he's also apparently said that he would slit his mum's throat on a previous occasion...I know it's reported that Terry Hobbs had a temper and would be physical with Steve and also his mum...?..but this doesn't seem to me to be a temper/rage killing...again going back to the expert witness in the trial, it had 'precision' so more a very 'cold' killing...and to me, that isn't Terry Hobb's character...(he may be a grim human being I know but...)...and this is what my thoughts keep going back to..that cold and emotionless doesn't really fit with the character of any of the parents but I have felt it with Damien and possibly Jason as well...less so with Jessie but he was the only one who admitted guilt for his part and he maintained that all of the way through and also after sentencing...he 'went along with' more than had the same intent as the other two because he was quite vulnerable..?...


..anyways I haven't read any of the sites that both of you have...I started to watch Devil's Knot the movie though...just to get a feel of where my thoughts would lead on guilt/innocence if I hadn't known any of the case/if the movie was all I had seen...the real life and the scenes in the movie are really well done and accurate but I was getting tired so I've only seen the first 45 minutes or so, I'll try to finish it today...one of the things on the movie though that I hadn't noticed in the actual footage of Damien going into the courtroom..was that he blew a kiss at a young lady that was shouting outside of the courtroom/in the crowd of many people shouting how evil he was....again, if that actually happened, it's that 'cold emotionless thing' and a lack of it all effecting him other than the 'fame' he was getting, which he had seemed happy with...

....hmmm, he mentions the drinking blood there and says he licked rather than drunk...

-Someone leaving doors open in an occupied room
-Being able to hear people talk in the other room/too loud

The necklace might not have been his. It's still up for discussion. A bit suspect this evidence was found afterwards
http://westmemphisthreediscussion.yu...-a-Smoking-Gun

Being chilling is still not enough evidence for me. There was no DNA from the boys anywhere. Terry was the last one seen with the boys and he also had a shaky alibi, plus his DNA and people confessions. Some of his family members and his ex wife want probing. I wish it was possible to look further into Terry and Byers. There's way too much circumstantial evidence on Byers. He was high on medicine during his polygraph so it might've affected his results.

Yes I mentioned earlier that Aaron pointed the finger at WM3 after watching tv but before all that he indicated Byers. In a later interview he said he might have fabricated some of it.

..I'll look at that link in a bit CeeCee..thank you..:love:...I have to say with Devil's Knot/the movie...(but having seen the court cases beforehand/I usually do these things the other way round with a movie sparking my thoughts..:laugh:..)...I am starting to have a bit of a turnaround over their guilt...the 'occult expert witness' in court didn't even have a PHD or any kind of qualification at all really...he had just done a correspondence course and completed a few questionnaires and even though this was pointed out to the judge by the defence...he overruled and allowed his testimony to stay against Damien...

...CeeCee/Niamh...also, Chris Morgan and Brian Holland who left the town just 4 days after the children were killed..?...Chris suffered from blackouts and memory losses at the time with drug abuse and didn't their polygraph tests come back dodgy...

Those names don't ring a bell with me......I thought I'd read everything about the case at this stage :laugh: I'm going to read up on that

So I watched West of Memphis last night. Ugh I know Damien was involved in the making of this one so I had that firmly in my mind while watching it...i have to say though it still swayed me a bit, out of all the PLs and devils Knot, this one really made me think they didn't do it. Also Eddie Vedder was in this one so that was a bonus :amazed:

Ammi & CeeCee if you haven't watched that one yet, do it.

They put forward the argument that alot of the injuries to the boys may have happened after they died and were in the water, including the emasculation of Chris Byers (I really hope that they're right too, poor child :( ) They showed examples of what Turtle bites and clawing looked like and they were almost identical to the marks on the boys and apparently that area was full of turtles

I was finally a bit swayed on the possibility of it being Terry as well although Pam still seems like a really unreliable source to me :think:

I felt so sorry for her and Terrys daughter, I feel like she may have suffered the most because of the murders

A couple of things that weren't clear to me though, was it only Jesse's statement that made people think the boys had been raped or was there evidence of this? (I'm really hoping that didn't happen to them either)

And also, the whole blue candle wax on one of the boys clothes, that doesn't seem to ever be mentioned much but it's always one thing I keep coming back to

Do we know for sure whether Jesse passed or failed his polygraph? I've read conflicting stories on that, one says he passed but the Police told him he failed and that's when he confessed and on other sites I read that he actually failed it. Also, did Damien and Jason ever take Polygraphs? On West of Memphis they say that Terry refused to do one which is suspicious I think

....hmmmm chores and ironing or West of Memphis today, I'll have to give it some thought....I'll report back my findings on West of Memphis later...x....


....with Chris Morgan and Brian Holland..?..I can't recall which site because like you two ladies, I've read quite a bit now..:laugh:...but there is a huge court transcript conversation discussing Chris Morgan as a witness for the defence/which led me to wiki who he was...and he was an ice-cream van guy, who knew the boys and was often the area...the defence of him being allowed to testify is that he did actually (apparently) say that he may have killed them but wasn't sure because of his drug use and suffering blackouts and memory losses...so they polygraphed and the findings were that they felt he wasn't being truthful when asked direct questions about the killings...he and Brian Holland..(who I haven't had the chance to specifically google yet..)...both left 4 days after the murders to live in California...what a random thing to more or less, confess that he might have something to do with killing them though.../these townsfolk are so odd....


...one thing with this case for me though is that it's such a great example of the death penalty just never being a thing ever...it's so long to be carried out anyway to allow for possible new evidence to come to light... so then would seem pointless because rehabilitation in that time is so possible also...it's an easy kneejerk with heinous crimes such as this, I understand that...but it's just always wrong for me....

...not sure if I actually saw Jason take one but Damien definitely did because I saw it on one of the vids..it didn't show the actual questioning though, just him wired up to the polygraph machine in the interview room...

.....eeeek don't hate me CeeCee but I still think that Damien seems like quite a dark person in his thoughts../I wwas looking at some of his artwork yesterday and it has a very dark feel to it....(disclaimer CeeCee.: that doesn't equal killer though/just a little side comment...)...

and what was the result?

Oh yeah the ice Cream van guy. Was he the one who had asked Pam for a photo of Stevie? Who was that actually and again going back to the weirdness of these people, imagine some guy asks for a photo of your 8 year old son and you give it to him? How odd

...I think that they thought he was lying when he said that he had no part in ...but it did brush over it like it was such an unimportant/trivial bit ...they really had no evidence at all hen you think about it...Aaron and Jessy being completely unreliable witnesses and no DNA or anything else...(and yes, what you said...I hope that much of it was done after the children were dead..:sad:...)...


...oh actually did we cover the pen knife that Pam Hobbs found after she started to suspect Terry as a possibility..?...that had been given to Stevie by his granddad and that he always had with him..she was certain that he would have had it that day and she found it in the attack in a toolbox thing that Terry had, so how did he have it....