And there we come back to people like you who think they have the right to decide who exactly is being racist. People who want to play judge and jury over the thoughts and opinions of others and shut down any opinions they believe challenge theirs.

Unless people are being blatantly abusive and offensive in their language they have equal rights to the expression of their views on issues such as immigration. Challenging mass immigration is not racism and it is not your right to label it as such. The very way in which some on here do so can also be called pretty damn hateful and manipulative.

Firstly; :oh:

Secondly;
No hunny, there are tibb rules, and racism etc is obviously against them.. Why do you keep bringing up immigration, sounds like a massive chip on the shoulder to me. For somebody who doesnt see themselves as racist, you're certainly talking about yourself a lot in this thread.

Hurting people is easy getting away with it is the hard part

There are tibb rules hunny but they are being abused by those trying to close down different views. Something isn't racist because you say so. You have an opinion not the rulebook.

I do not see myself as racist but that is not my concern and never has been. My concern is about the attempted shut-down by the manipulative. I have no time for radical PC. Got it now hun!

I talk about myself and my experience on here because certain individuals have repeatedly accused me of that because I have been open about my views on mass immigration and the wearing of burkhas in the West, you being one of the worst offenders - so don't try to play the innocent by pretending to wonder what immigration has to do with it - the very fact you try to do that shows you know exactly what you do. Neither of those opinions in themselves make me racist - unless of course I was calling immigrants and people of colour ugly names and stating I viewed them as inferior. Show me where I have said that! Most can see that, others don't care because they just want to manipulate people into their way of thinking on issues such as immigration.

Btw the question on your poll is a totally loaded question rendering it pretty invalid as you are suggesting that what you say is racist is racist and anything different to your view is ignorance. Yes mate, if you say so.

People get hurt - it's called life. You can't always legislate against it.

Some things need to be legislated against such as racism, sexism etc, but that is not a licence for the extreme to shut down the honest concerns of others. Some people will always try it on and try to control how others think. It's a power thing.

I just have to add here, I genuinely don't think that anyone on TiBB has ever been accused of racism for questioning mass immigration? It's really not about the stance, it's about the arguments used to justify that stance.

e.g.

"I'm against mass immigration because our country simply cannot economically handle the influx of people, we don't have the infrastructure" <-- Not racist in the slightest

"I'm against immigration because I'm worried about sleeper terrorists entering the country" - STILL not racist.

"I'm against immigration because I believe that most men from certain other cultures are violent and dangerous by nature and will attack and abuse people here" - getting kind of racist now



Also the idea that people don't "get to decide who is racist or not" - well, that's true, if you're talking in objective terms... but everyone is free to form their own view of someone, so it's perfectly reasonable for anyone to say to anyone else, "I find you to be racist". It's an opinion of someone... you DO get to decide that. It's really absolutely no different from saying "I find you snowflakey" or "I think you are too PC" or any other opinion that a person might have of another person. That opinion may or may not be factually accurate, but it is still "true that it is that person's opinion".

All that said; I find myself agreeing with what Ammi said earlier in the thread, and that labelling on both sides probably isn't helpful in any way. However... you can't really complain about someone calling you racist if you are happy to call them a snowflake, a "lefty", or PC... and vice versa.

Nobody did, what you talking about?

“As a White male, you purpously discriminated against me“

Unless you’re saying that pointing out how damaging white male privilege is is discriminatory and bigoted. I see.

There is nothing wrong with stating an opinion or belief so long as the person posting it excepts it as testable. When a poster on here recently started a thread about transgenderism, it was obvious from the very first post that it was an opinion backed up with logical support. She didn't get angry when people strongly debated her values and so what happened there was, the thread went on for numerous days with reasonable and intellectual dialogue.

When someone posts half-baked misguided opinion's or show a negative attitude or intolerance towards certain kinds of people and when those opinions are delivered without logical support or insufficient reasoning, and come with a strong tone of prejudice; its going to be open to scrutiny. Because its an opinion and not a fact, that scrutiny is going to be at a personal level. Values are bound to be questioned and facts are going to be delivered in an attempt to change that persons thought process. If that person refuses to listen to facts and continues to deliver the same rhetoric, then inevitably people will form their own opinions of that poster and they may not be pleasant ones.

Right, I was done here but I need to comment on this post.

Nobody has ever tried to shut you down, what you see as people 'shutting you down' is actually just other people having their say on what you've said. That's the problem here. You see other opinions as people trying to shut you down and you use that to try to silence other people by making out that views that are in opposition to yours are an attack on you.

You claim people try to shut you down but in actuality, it's often you that's guilty of that because you can't recognise that people can have opinions too, it's not a right that's exclusive to you.

As I've said plenty of times (but you've ignored it just as much) If someone accuses you of something in a way that's reasonable and does not use insulting language then it's down to you to combat that accusation. Trying to make out that an accusation is an insult doesn't work when you are no stranger to hurling out accusations yourself. You don't realise that, because you don't defend yourself and instead you try to instead prevent people from calling you racist in the first place that it just makes you look guilty of that accusation since you are more concerned about the accusation then proving it's not true.

As for the whole white privilege thing, pointing it out is not bigoted or discrimination. I've never faced discrimination on the grounds of being a white male, having someone point out that white males don't often have experiences with being on the receiving end of discrimination is not an attack, it's pretty much a fact. I've only ever faced discrimination on accounts of being bisexual and that doesn't occur if people don't think I'm anything other than straight.

Having known what discrimination actually feels like when it comes to my sexuality, I can say with certainty that I've never had to deal with discrimination when it comes to my gender or race.

It's not just me - some of the left thinkers on here do it to any poster who has differing views although some do seem to do it more with some posters than others. Many people have said the same, let's please pretend it is just me saying it.

And no I shouldn't have to defend myself from insults for views that are not expressed in an insulting or personal way. I only get personal with those that get personal with me.

As for me attempting to shut down others - again only when they try that with me.

I could say exactly the same about you. You are intolerant of people you have judged in exactly the same way as you accuse others of. I find you very judgemental when you can't convince people to see things your way.
That is neither endearing or pleasant either.

You can question someone's 'values' but that does not give you the right to then patronize because you see them as being different to yours - something you do lot. So please less of the holier than thou act - it's trying

No, I am more concerned with you thinking you can browbeat people into silence with aggression and name-calling - something you have been criticized for on many occasions by several different people. You will keep trying to twist the blame in my direction though - I wonder why!

Yes everyone is free to form their own view and state it as their opinion. But some on here don't do that - they present their opinion as if it were a proven fact.

If people don't want to be called snowflakes, lefty or PC than don't call others bigots, racist or homophobic based on very little then. It isn't rocket science. From my experience it is nearly always those on the left that start with the name-calling.

When have I ever tried to 'browbeat' anyone into silence?

I literally ****ing preach that freedom of speech is a two way street, that people can have controversial opinions and everyone is entitled to their views on everyone else's opinions. I've been saying that all thread, i've been saying that for years.

You've just proved what I've said to be true, I was not attacking you, I had an opinion on what you've said and now you're trying to invalidate that opinion by denouncing it as an attack that makes no sense since it's ignored what I've said all thread. You are incapable of dealing with opinions that are not your own, this reply is proof of that.

I can see that you are trying to draw me into an argument to paint me as the bad guy though so I'm going to end the discussion here since it won't lead to anything good if you're just going to make out that everything I say is an attack on you even when it makes no sense to do so.

I'm not actually - most of the time I try and avoid you it's just not worth it. But sometimes I feel your comments need to be responded to.

You see, here's the thing. What I said didn't imply to anyone in particular. It was you who recognized yourself in my words. You then come back making accusations directly at me.

It always feels as though your looking for a fight. I've seen entire threads (that I haven't taken part in) where you are gunning for a fight. Much as I love a bit of a verbal scrap, I honestly don't have enough hours in the day to keep you amused, so on that note, I'll leave you to it.

Recognising it was hardly difficult bearing in mind you say it to me quite a lot, which is part of the problem. I'm not stupid. If you were either a totally peaceful person who liked to avoid any kind of conflict or didn't feel I had a valid point in some things I say - you would simply avoid me. You do so half-heartedly now and again but you always have to put your two pennies worth in at some point.

You see, like me, you have your moments, so not really in a position to judge on that one either.

Absolutely...and it's always the same small group who call you racist and start picking at you. I don't see it myself - I don't always agree with your opinions, but racist, no. You just have different views that don't fit inside the others little rigid box.
Nobody else calls you racist but those few with their 'you must see things like we do' group - think. That points to them being the problem, not you.

I was gonna comment on that post, but others have summed my thoughts on it nicely.
"One of the worst offenders" is, I mean, whatever. I have never called you a racist, I don't know you well enough to make that summary Brillo.
Also it's less to do with your boring 'mass immigration' threads, and more to do with coming into a terrorism thread and blaming muslims instantly, it's more to do with you seeing a photo of a boy and his name in an article and having a rant about his culture that you presumed you knew about. It's more to do with the underlying tone in your posts that scream ugly.
And even through all of these insane posts, which others can call racism, it's their prerogative, and it's their opinion - but I have not - the closest I got (I checked yesterday) was saying something like "it's like you want people to see you as a racist or something" and I feel well entitled in saying that because it's constant and excessive. You never defend yourself well against these allegations, you give people plentiful reasons to make these allegations, and you, yourself, right here, have saw a post about racism in general and made t about yourself on tibb.

If you don't consider yourself racist, stop giving us reason to suspect otherwise.

I will continue to not call you a racist, I don't know you personally. If I see a post that I suspect to be racist, I will call you or anyone else up on it, and you can either defend your stance or blame my ****ing agenda, I don't really care.

You do that and I will continue to say my piece to.

..yeah I think on a small forum such as this is and in this section in particular, we do fairly much get a feel about opinions on certain topics which reoccur frequently..and obviously immigration being one over the last few year for various reasons/and with media attention...I have to say though...(and I have seen many 'rants' in my time..:laugh:...)..I don't think I've ever seen one from any present/regular poster which I would have felt required a label of 'racist'...hmmm, there are some things that maybe over a year ago, my thoughts may have been slightly different with this for instance...but then there are things in life../..specifics etc which make us think more and even cause us to reassess etc...that's something that happens to all of us, isn't it..our life experiences/our environments..our 'stories' as it were, these are all things that mould and form or opinions, views...and yes, even our 'judgements'...anyways, what I mean is...even when someone's opinions have a tendency to be quite fixed or quite focused or quire 'ignorant' as you describe...I would assume there are reasons for that../reasons which have been formed through their own lives, experiences and through their own 'story'...in the public context of a forum, as with the discussion I had with TS...its completely understandable as well that members can be very wary of divulging personal 'stories'/experience, information which could give a better understanding of their opinions/views etc..that's obviously an individual thing and it has to feel comfortable for the person 'disclosing' ...so 'correcting' really isn't something that's in our control...and 'correcting' is like saying..something is wrong with you..:fist:../I m trying to correct your mistake etc when views and opinions aren't mistakes, they're what a person feels...I find anyway that using things like statistics and such the like is completely ineffective with anyone who may have great fears/worries/anxieties about something their thought focus on quite highly...I guess its like someone who was afraid of spiders for instance ..and then saying, look statistics show..so you're wrong to worry now hush..:fist:...so how does 'correction' happen, I mean how is it even a possibility..?..surely through communication and attaching labels will only ever delay/slow down/or break off etc...so completely counter-productive with any possible progress...anyways as I say, I have very rarely seen 'ists' on the forum...maybe questionable posts sometimes..?..and obviously those posts have been questioned and those questions been responded to etc ...those responses may not be something we can agree with ourselves in our own thoughts ..but it also doesn't indicate that the person with those responses is an 'ist' either...all that will ever do is to break down all communication and create distance...and Lord with Brexit and the split/divided vote we had there, creating more distance with opinions in this country on some very emotive topics seems like the last thing that would be progressive for any of us...

..yeah pretty much this bit in bold..see mine was the long and yours is the short of it..:laugh:.darn you, jet..(I will work on those shorter posts..)...

..I think what I'm trying to say..(..badly..)..is that we wouldn't put labels on our children..like you're the smart one, you're the dumb one, you're the this one, you're the that one..some positive, some negative etc..labels are just not conducive in the context of discussions and communication...although they're an 'entitlement' all of us can use, they will hinder any moving forward that was hoped for...