England?

So there's no link to that and your claims other than your mental gymnastics. Okay.

I'm old enough to remember the UK before we even joined the common market, and believe it or not we did just fine, travelled where we wanted to, worked where we wanted to. Traded with who we wanted to.

However, the world is not the same anymore. We have a global economy that is dependent on other countries. If they fail, we fail. So being connected with them and having a shared vision is a necessity for prosperity. We will struggle without a good trade agreement with europe, be in no doubt about that. They are our cheapest market and without a good agreement with them we will suffer and a hard brexit wont help that. That is reality, and I challenge any brexiteer to disagree.

That's really interesting bitontheslide.

It also ties in with a great deal older members of my family say too.
You point out a stark reality in that the World is not the same anymore as it was 40+ years ago.

Really strong content in your post.

free trade generate more profit than trade with tariffs, more profit stays in company's coffers
taxation is a different matter, very much decided by national governments and local authorities, not the eu

The problem is that we live in a world where facts are considered optional, BOTS. What you are saying is factually true, but given the Leave campaign and how effective their easily fact checked lies were, people want the lies more than they want to acknowledge the truth of the matter.

That's why people are so content to keep banging on about remain like how Trump will still bring up Hillary even now, years on from the election. It's a distraction from the realities upon us all. Why focus on the ramifications of our decisions when we can look for a scapegoat instead?

the stark truth is we'll need to compromise anyway
say we do hard brexit, countries like us, india or china will want all sorts of concessions for good trade agreement and they'll know we have no choice as we won't have backing of a powerful bloc behind us
us may want access for their big pharma (I pity nhs if that happens), agriculture (gm food) etc, India may want visa restrictions lifted (more immigration here), China? who knows... it's not going to be that the world will embrace us with open arms; oh, new zealand and their lamb? what will farmers say?

the big problem is people are generally not well-informed about the eu and decades of hostile press owned by people who live abroad (and hate eu bc it has a say over their rapacious media empires) have done their damage
Some brexiteers wan't do kick the relatively benign eu not realizing it will be replaced by much more unpleasant partners

we're part of europe and should stick together, only eu can talk as equal partner to the likes of china or us

and eu army makes perfect sense
europe should not expect america to pay for its defence indefinitely
most if not all eu countries have professional, career armed forces, there's no need for conscription anyway

Very rude and sarcastic to me there, If I report you, will you ban yourself?

what utter nonsense

you literally just made that up

ironically

Not rude and sarcasm well within DS standards.
:nono: Alfred

I got banned last week for being sarcastic to Dezzy, because when I'm sarcastic, I'm apparently baiting.

And you don't get to decide what I find rude, it's 2018.

:hug:

Which is why tibb is ****.

The "you don't get to decide..." is always a dead giveaway.

And they ask, is TiBB dying?

The mess that is the tory government and brexit? I mean, in part, but not really anywhere near as directly as it it the tories’ and the brexiteers? Nice try but no.