Originally Posted by bitontheslide (Post 10546949)

if you strip leave down to it's basics, it was take control of EU immigration and bring back control to our own parliament, freedom to create our own trade deals .... there really is nothing wrong with those goals. They are clear and easily understood, and that's basically what people voted leave for. Everything else was and is noise. Obfuscation is being applied from both sides of the argument. That's our MP's fault, no-one elses. They are trying to make something that is actually very simple seem very complicated. It's not complicated and it never has been. Parliament could easily have voted to approve brexit and we would be several months into the transition by now. But they blocked it because they don't want it.

I don't see any resolution coming other than a hard brexit or a cancel it. That should be the basis of any referendum. I didn't want another ref, but i think it's inevitable now.

Originally Posted by bitontheslide (Post 10546949)

if you strip leave down to it's basics, it was take control of EU immigration and bring back control to our own parliament, freedom to create our own trade deals .... there really is nothing wrong with those goals.

Originally Posted by Vicky. (Post 10546939)

I don't think thats fair tbh. Some voted for reasons other than falling for the lies or being xenophobic.

Though I have to say, in my 'friendship/family' group..it was mainly either falling for the lies or it being about immigration. Along with a fair few who voted to leave while believing pie in the sky 'no immigration or fees, but keep trade deals' stuff whcih was clearly ridiculous.

I mean, I don't pretend I even knew what I was voting for, should have looked up more at the time but was kind of put off the whole thing by all the obvious bull**** that people were falling for, along with the fact that the vote itself seemed to make some people think that it was now fine to be openly racist (again, not calling all leavers racist, but its undeniable that many took it as license to be..loud with ignorant views) It all just made me turn off. Also, again I feel the need to point out that obviously not everyone who had immigration as part of the reason for their vote was being xenophobic or whatever, some were genuine. But a fair few..were basically just like 'get the ****ers out!!!!' (which again was not going to bloody happen either..)

So I voted on better the devil you know really. Rather than being totally informed. I didn't even know on the morning I voted which way I was going to go! But decided that the leave side was just telling more lies, and I would rather no change at all than..possibly totally ****ing the country. Of course it could have really benefitted us, still a slim possibility that it might. But in hindsight, I am fairly sure I made the right call.

Just get so frustrated with it all. And how some people on my life have changed for the worse. Or not changed really, just..showed a hidden side of themselves. And how it seems to be denied that this happens.

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper (Post 10546962)

That's completely fair. It's far friendlier than I'm capable of being around this issue these days. I do disagree with you, and you sort of disagree with yourself in the 2nd paragraph, but you have the self awareness to acknowledge it :laugh:

Originally Posted by Vicky. (Post 10546960)

Disagree with this. Of course I don't know everyone in the country of even my area..but in my experience no way was the majority leave vote sensible like the way you put it. It really was 'immigrants **** off back to where you are from, close the borders fullstop', 'we spend so much on the EU when it could be going to the NHS and such' (as IF anything potentially saved would go towards something worthwhile.

Originally Posted by Dezzy (Post 10546943)

Leavers ARE angry, 'Grrr Remainers! Grrr Theresa May! Grrr the EU! Grrr Diane Abbot!' There's no self reflection there, just blaming everyone but themselves for buying the snake oil.

We are a laughing stock and we deserve to be, the people voted for something they didn't understand and were lied to about it and told to disregard experts who said things they didn't like and now brexit isn't likely to ever happen because the leavers want some idealised idea of Brexit that's never going to happen. We aren't going to magically be better off with no deal and we aren't likely to get a better deal than the one that was on the table.

Originally Posted by bitontheslide (Post 10546949)

if you strip leave down to it's basics, it was take control of EU immigration and bring back control to our own parliament, freedom to create our own trade deals .... there really is nothing wrong with those goals. They are clear and easily understood, and that's basically what people voted leave for. Everything else was and is noise. Obfuscation is being applied from both sides of the argument. That's our MP's fault, no-one elses. They are trying to make something that is actually very simple seem very complicated. It's not complicated and it never has been. Parliament could easily have voted to approve brexit and we would be several months into the transition by now. But they blocked it because they don't want it.

I don't see any resolution coming other than a hard brexit or a cancel it. That should be the basis of any referendum. I didn't want another ref, but i think it's inevitable now.