Until Vicky womansplained it to you, surely.

Yes but I would have thought that's because of transwomen being more likely than transmen to get stopped and therefore a story to arise from it, rather than the actual want of using facilities for their gender identity being different across transmen and transwomen in general.

If they're going to be naked and on display then that's probably true, although I think those environments are pretty rare since mens toilets and changing rooms etc mostly have cubicles.
Thinking about it my friend who is transman does use the womens in one bar we sometimes go to because the mens cubicles don't have doors (he's transsexual but still has a vagina), he'd still prefer to use mens facilities though. He actually looks like a man though so when he does have to use the womens he's always afraid of a reaction. He can't really win lol.

That's heartbreaking </3 And yes gender identity means **** all to a lot of people and a rapist certainly isn't going to care but I don't think that shows it doesn't exist. I won't get into all of that again lol I think you know how I feel about it but somebody not having experienced it or not believing it or not caring about it doesn't make it less real for somebody that does experience it.

Don't be silly... that's not a thing, stop trying to make womansplaining a thing!

It is a thing, things are only things when people say they're things, and I say that this thing is a thing. Just like I couldn't get my head around the game "Roblox High School" until my daughter childsplained it to me... And I didn't know that poor Morty's water bottle was empty until he hamstersplained how thirsty he was :worry:. It would have been so awkward if he got ill and I'd had to take him in to have it vetsplained to me.

:joker: Aw go lie down in a dark room #kizzplaining

I think most people socialized as female would feel uncomfortable going into male areas. Without sounding all 'militant feminist' here, women are pretty much taught to fear men...mainly through mens own actions. For example, the first time I was sexually assaulted I was 11. I had just started to grow tits and a random guy on the street first was whistling at me (in my school uniform) and them grabbed both tits when I walked past him (trying to ignore). This continues on a fairly regular basis as you are growing up (for most women I assume, at least all women I have spoke to about it). Grown ass men wolf whistling at you, flashing you, groping you. When you tell teachers they don't take it seriously, or in my case will say 'well you weren't actually hurt' and thats it. Sometimes it was reported to the police, who again did not take it seriously and would ask questions like 'why were you alone' which make it seem like the attack was my fault. Then you start (as a teen) getting messages from various places/people about how you should not ever walk home in the dark, avoid alleys, don't get into unlicensed cabs, don't get too drunk as you will be open to being raped, don't wear revealing clothing...and so on. These messages come from all angles..parents, teachers, friends, tv, news..everywhere.

Now, I don't 'fear men' as such. But I damn well know I have to be wary around men I do not know. Chances are, they are absolutely fine. Maybe the messages of fear I got growing up are OTT. But there is also a chance they are NOT fine and are one of the bad ones. As a woman I am unlikely to be able to overcome the average man if he does attack me. I am fairly strong for a woman, but **** all compared to a bloke. I used to think I could overcome most blokes, until I was playfighting with a mate who is smaller than me and fairly thin too. He managed to pin me against a wall and keep me there with little effort. That scared the crap out of me and it seems I have been underestimating the power of testosterone and just...male bodies :laugh:

Not sure what this post has to do with anything. It was going to be a reply to transmen going into male areas, but it has evolved as I have wittered on. But yeah, I don't think transmen would be as comfortable using male areas as they might make out sometimes. Obviously the experience of all female people will not be the same as mine, but I honestly think most women will get where I am coming from with this post, even if their experiences differ a bit. I expect men will read this and think I am attacking all men or something, but I really am not. Just trying to explain a bit of what its actually like to be 'socialized' as female.

Actually my post also explains why a lot of women are uncomfortable with men in their changing rooms and such. You don't know if that guy wearing a dress (or not wearing a dress, as transwomen can look just like any other man these days as no 'transition' is required to be 'trans) is a danger or not. And in an area where there should be only females, a bloke pushing his way in kind of says to me that he doesnt care at all about if the women are uncomfortable on bit and he only cares about himself. So hes automatically a dodgy one :S

Obviously this does not apply to 'transwomen' who 'pass' (and these people already use female areas with no issues, so no law change is required at all) as noone is any the wiser unless they start playing helicopter with their dick in the communal part or something. But when its one of the ones who looks like a bloody bloke and yet insists on forcing his way into the womens changing rooms, most women in there will be on alert instantly. And thats not fair at all.

I think some women wrongly believe they could level with a man in a fight. I used to play fight with my ex and I always ended up pinning him to the ground; I didn't think for a minute that he was allowing me to do that. But when Steve (who is a lot smaller than my ex) and me had a play fight, he just held me down with one hand until I was exhausted. When a man means business, he's a lot stronger than a woman and yes, the realization of that is frightening.

As for female areas, its all to do with practice and customs. I think if you'd grown up with it, its not something you'd probably think about.

Yeah, my husband used to hold back when we were 'fighting' which was part of why I thought I could take most men if it came down to it. He is 6ft 3 and not exactly what you would call skinny. He used to swear he was trying...but after this happened with our mate (who is literally like 5foot and can't weigh more than about 9 stone!), he finally admitted that he barely even makes an effort. I did ask him when we were at home to use full strength just so I could see...and it was really ****ing scary. I was pinned in a millisecond and he had me there without using any effort at all.

Just to clarify with some of the views I've posted in this thread, I don't deny that women have more of these experiences and that our socialisation is different, I had a couple of experiences like this as a child, once when I was with friends and once when I was with my mum and sister, and also twice as an adult in a place of work, but I know this doesn't mean I've been socialised in the same way and that it is a more regular thing for women and I'm not going to have those same feelings of fear, and that my experiences are isolated. But none of my views are denying this is the case, Just thought I'd point that out incase anyone has the wrong impression with some of what I was saying, which is that however real the fear is, danger isn't always present in situations where there might be fear or unease.

I can vouch for that vicky, I was assaulted for the first time in an amusement arcade at 10ish, low lighting, hands down my top. rubbed against, cat called, groped, molested by an ex, physically assaulted...

It's hard when on the one hand you are encouraged NOT to put yourself at risk, and then at the same time be so open to the needs of others, it's very conflicting :/

Oh I didn't think you were denying this or anything. And sorry you have also had these experiences.

No danger is not always present (as luckily sex offenders are not as common as non-sex offenders), but the fear is always there. For many women anyway. And since we cannot tell which man is dangerous and which is not...its entirely rational to be wary of all men you do not know. IMO anyway.

Oh yes. You have to be wary, but not too wary as that might upset some people. The messages women get are indeed confusing and contradictory at times.

I can appreciate that it's scarier for women in general just because of the physicality of it. I think it's important to recognise, basically, thatnits not just men who "perv" and I've been catcalled and groped LOADS of times by women (though to be fair, not when I was as young as 10! But from 15 upwards certainly) however there is a definite difference in that while it can be physically uncomfortable, it isn't physically intimidating, as I'm confident that realistically a woman groping me in a bar couldn't actually overpower me outside.

The only one time I've ever been actually intimidated was because a girl tried to stick her tongue down my throat as I was walking across a club, I was like "Err, no thanks!" and then a massive group of her male mates surrounded me and basically went nuts at me for "upsetting her" and threatened me until I let her kiss me. Definitely a totally different experience to being harassed by females and I guess that's the difference; the actual level of risk.

Coincidentally, there are actually some teenage girls catcalling me through the window at work right now :facepalm: :joker:.

I recommended a book on here ages ago called 'The Gift of Fear' which is basically written with women in mind. The first chapter of that book is so compelling. Reading that was possibly the biggest wake up call I've ever had.

Its not just men who perv. But its mainly men. Who perv on both women and other men.

Also I personally would fine a male perv scarier. Because I stand a chance of fighting a female one off. Where I stand little to no chance against a male. Also I have never ever been sexually assaulted by a female. I have been assaulted many many times by men in my lifetime. Maybe female pervs focus their attention on men, but for me...a female perv seems to be as rare as fairy dust.

:laugh: Oh dear.

My husband gets 'hello sexy' and stuff a lot from women. He just laughs it off though. He says in clubs and stuff he is groped a lot. But it doesn't 'scare' him as such, its more an annoyance. And apparently its usually men doing the groping, not women. Which makes sense as we usually go to gay bars, so the women there will not be interested in a bepenised individual really

I genuinely think the actual "perv impulse" if you will is pretty much 50/50, but I would agree that it's mainly men who "openly and confidently" perv, and yes, it's obviously more intimidating. Female perving is generally considered (and potentially is?) "less serious" and is more likely to be "private", like comments made within their group of friends / laughing / maybe shouting over once or twice with ensuing hilarity. Or the butt / balls grope at a busy bar - very VERY common to the extent that I would say, back when I did go out a lot, it was unusual if it DIDN'T happen at least 2 or 3 times a night if it was somewhere busy. That tends to be literally a grab whilst acting like they didn't do anything... That seems to be the game :shrug:.

Also the men who are a target of it tend to mind less (BUT I would say it's important to remember that it does make some very anxious and uncomfortable), and I guess that is down to the intimidation factor too.

E.g. Like I said, literally 10 mins ago there was a group of girls outside catcalling in the window at me... Just gave them a smile and a wave and off they go giggling. Have to keep the fans happy, I guess. BUT if it was one of the female staff here, alone, at night, and there were a dozen teenage boys leering in the window... It becomes quite a different situation.

Yep,Almost all of my mates and me have been groped by women many many times.
I used to go out at 16-17 and women in their late 20’s would do it.

We started hitting the local pub at 16 and I swear the worst for it were women in their late 40s / early 50s! We thought it was all a good laugh but it's actually so dodgy. Plus one of my friends started a 6 month fling with a 48 year old when he was 17 :facepalm:. And picked it up again in his early 20s when she was like 53 :umm2:...

What a load of rubbish... I work in a predominantly male environment and honestly when a woman walks in it's like they've never seen a woman or have wives, it's very odd. I have never experienced something like that before.

And how many of these blokes actually go and cop a feel?

I’d bet none.

That’s what seperates them from actual pervs.

Looking at and chatting about a nice looking woman is a whole different ball game from going and grabbing one.

(And PS women do this too.Heard it many times)

I can well believe it.I didn’t used to go much to the clubs with the over forties women.I did cop off with a 35 y/o though when i was around 17.She would flirt regularly with me and one night she pounced.I didn’t really fight her off if i’m honest.

When young men walk into predominantly female workplaces EXACTLY the same thing happens, just like I said, not as openly - they talk about and objectify the sexy mailman / gardener / whatever amongst themselves. It's not really any different in terms of motivation.

Also... Plenty of school-run mums perv. :shrug:. Women are just more subtle. I reckon you're just not looking for it so you don't see it.