Regarding Mickey, it's very possible he says something so much worse and we will have something new to ruminate about shortly, so I think if there's a hole to be dug, it can certainly be dug a bit deeper... he alone has that capability...

For Jojo, it will be interesting if their earlier interaction will hold weight over his future behavior in his house... whether he evolves or devolves...
That's the true advantage to keeping Jack. He has so much more potential to annoy the hell out of HMs and some of us will root for it, I think... :laugh: If he makes it to the Final and places somewhere up top, that will be quite the feat.

Your comment originally suggested that Mickey made his comments in the current climate of “woke liberalism” and so your insinuation is that JoJo took offence to gain social power, rather than because the comments were actually just offensive. That is undermining the homophobic remarks.

I agree in theory, but you yourself are deciding what offence is fake and what isn’t and then playing victim based off of your own made up benchmark, which isn’t actually reality.

If there is proof the offence is actually fake then fair enough, as that’s just a form of manipulation and is wrong but my point is you are setting a level of what you deem to be offence worthy and what isn’t and anything that veers into the “what isn’t” is then categorised as “weaponised fake offence”. My point is, as a straight person, that is not your level to set.

I think we should rationalise this further: your version of straight people being silenced extends to: “we can’t say what we want without repercussions to the offensive thing we said anymore”. In this case it’s that Mickey can’t joke about tying a young woman up and ‘changing’ her sexuality, he isn’t allowed to refer to her as ‘the lesbian’ and that he can’t call her a fag. Taking offence to that is either using it to gain social power, is being thin skinned or is just fake and is simultaneously silencing straight people.

Whereas gay people being silenced is: literally living as a different person short term or long term for actual safety or so straight people aren’t uncomfortable with gay people just existing.

For example, I knew I was gay from an early age and pretended to be straight until around 20. It was so ****ing exhausting, honestly. When I came out; I was the only gay guy in my friendship group. How open do you think my friends were in hearing me talk about my attraction to men; who in the bar I thought was good looking, my sex life? Despite me hearing it all from them about women since mid-teens. Now all is good, but even when out initially my straight mates just didn't want to hear about my gayness: I was still being silenced by straight people who couldn’t handle hearing from me all the things they had been guilty of speaking to me about. It was ****ing repressing even after 10 years of knowingly being in the closet and hiding every quirk about me I thought might be a ‘tell’ in exposing me as a gay boy.

Sorry you can’t say fag anymore without it being called homophobic though, I guess.

I am not going to deny there aren’t radicalised members of the LGBT community; that would be stupid and dishonest. But I do think there needs to be a bit of honesty here about the power imbalance that each group of people have at either end of the spectrum.

At the end of the day, LGBT people make up 3% of the population. Let’s say for instance a third of that are super hardcore radicalised LGBT people (which is generous), you’re talking 1% of the worlds population. They can’t really illicit much change and certainly not change that makes it hard to be straight. Not change that invalidates your marriage, gets you killed, changes the way you interact with your partner in public, limits your travel, changes the language you use to hide your sexuality just incase.

On the flip side, the extreme on the other end of the spectrum will make up far more of the population and yield far more power. Look at the US right now, rights are being removed for trans people (and for women, but that’s a whole different subject), books are being banned to quell education and representation and quite honestly it wouldn’t surprise me if they do to gay marriage what they did with abortion and have it decided on a state by state basis which would end up invalidating marriages between gay people.

The change that can and has and will effect gay people due to the radicalised right is far more dangerous than any radicalised LGBT person can do purely by the fact that straight people make up 97% of the population. Their straightness is never ever going to be under actual threat through the actions of the 1% of extreme LGBT people.

It’s been good to debate with you as always but I feel like I cant continue this conversation without repeating myself, though I will happily read your reply. I appreciate your time in this exchange. Have a good day.

BREAKING NEWS: Straight man who has never faced homophobia claims homophobia doesn’t exist.

In other news: Blind man who has never seen grass claims grass is fake news.

…not to detract and derail what’s a very interesting sharing of opinions between BBXX and Vesavius in offering different perspectives…the initial remarks that caused upset and offence from Mickey…?..were not only said to a gay person, the offensive term wasn’t just directed at a gay person…it was all pointedly directed at a gay female and the ‘tie you up’ comment was definitely something that many females would find very disturbing and wouldn’t find any ‘lightness of joking’ in at all in any world but most definitely in this current world…and I do feel that’s often forgotten or overshadowed with females…so I do think this all quite layered because no such remarks were made to any male of the house…only a young female…

…I was watching a vid of a bonding chat with JoJo and Mickey/discussing their tattoos…and it was all very sweet and it made me think…I do think that Mickey maybe struggles in relating to females other than on a ‘physical attraction/sexual’ type basis…I don’t know if that’s true, that’s just my own pondering but the tattoo chat they has was so endearing because it had such a ‘father/daughter’ type vibe …

…anyway, I don’t have time to add any thoughts on other aspects this morning but it is very refreshing to read two perspectives and thought processes etc, relayed so eloquently and respectfully to each other…:love:..

I think you have a point.

While the comments were homophobic, I don’t think Mickey is homophobic, I think he’s ignorant and actually I don’t think it was rooted in homophobia but I do think it was probably rooted in some kind of mix of lack of social skills, sexism and arrogance in that he’s probably used his fame throughout life to obtain what he wants and so the idea a woman wouldn’t give him the time of day was unfamiliar to him.

The “tie you up” comment is indicative of a bruised ego.

Yes, because the current climate of woke liberalism plays a part and can't be separated out. I'm not going to ignore talking about it because it offends.


If you only agree in theory then you don't actually agree at all.

Our own judgement and interpretation of intention and context is all we have. We all make judgements on those things every day and I trust my reading of a situation. I am always going to trust my own judgement on these things over an alternative reality dictated to me by others.

Again, you are comparing as if it's some kind of victimhood competition.

I have said from the start that LGBT+ issues are as important.


I have never said that at all. That definitely is not a word that I would choose to use and I have not defended Mickey using it. But, in the end it's just a single word and only has the power over you that you give it. In the end offence isn't given, it's taken.

I wouldn't have used 'queer' a few years ago either until it was re-appropriated, so who knows in the future. It's all ultimately about context and intent. Even JoJo understands that.

Yes, but that 3% has a vastly disproportionate loud voice and influence and has the backing of both the State and the Corporate world.

Look, I am not here to defend the radicalised right at all... I have explained why idiots like Tate have emerged, I am not here to say that's a good thing. I do not think that's it's a good thing, tbc.

I dislike the radical right as much as I dislike the radical left. Both are full of nutters.

I understand. Thank you for staying civil and taking the time to express your views. We might not have arrived at an agreement but that's ok :)

Yeah, the 'tie you up' stuff was what I found most over the line in all honesty.

I do think that it was Mickey attempting banter with JoJo but I also think it was clumsy, ill judged, and inappropriate when directed at someone that doesn't know him or his intentions well.

But, yeah, JoJo has made peace with it and moved on and she's the one in there with him who sees the most of him, so I think I am happy to move on as well.

I am very impressed with her in all honesty.