Originally Posted by Kizzy (Post 7722271)

Or... It could just be the truth? It's not sensationalist headline, it's a one sentence explanation of the findings of a research document that compares an attitudinal shift from the 40s and the present day.

Originally Posted by MTVN (Post 7722290)

Well I don't think it's helpful to make such a statement, even if they changed it just slightly to "attitudes to poverty are as bad as in the 1940s" it would be a more appropriate reflection of the study findings. Otherwise it's quite problematic to say that 'attitudes' are the same and therefore poverty is and I'm not sure how much value there is in trying to make such comparisons.

Originally Posted by MTVN (Post 7722290)

Well I don't think it's helpful to make such a statement, even if they changed it just slightly to "attitudes to poverty are as bad as in the 1940s" it would be a more appropriate reflection of the study findings. Otherwise it's quite problematic to say that 'attitudes' are the same and therefore poverty is and I'm not sure how much value there is in trying to make such comparisons.

Originally Posted by Kizzy (Post 7722360)

It's not helpful to make programmes entitled 'skint' 'on benefits and proud' or 'benefits street' however we disagree with the semantics of the titles there is a debate to be had if we can see past these.

Originally Posted by Kazanne (Post 7722715)

I don't think anyone is in real poverty here are they? I mean REAL poverty.

Originally Posted by Kizzy (Post 7722750)

Is there such a thing as social deprivation? Yes there is and that's what creates poverty.
We are not in India, we are a rich fully developed nation with a long history of democracy.

Originally Posted by Kazanne (Post 7722715)

I don't think anyone is in real poverty here are they? I mean REAL poverty.

Originally Posted by Kazanne (Post 7722757)

Don't you think though Kizzy that because we are a rich fully developed nation that we are greedy and expect too much?:wavey:

Originally Posted by Kizzy (Post 7722750)

Is there such a thing as social deprivation? Yes there is and that's what creates poverty.
We are not in India, we are a rich fully developed nation with a long history of democracy.

Originally Posted by joeysteele (Post 7722998)

Yes ,real poverty exists in the UK,if people bothered to find those that are in it, they would get a real eye opener, sadly they are ignored or brushed aside socially.

Obviously it is nowhere near the scale it was in the 40s.
Which for most that were, must have been a really horrible time to be poor,unless you had some good neighbours and people around you.
When also looking out for each other was more the norm.

This is the example of change in attitude now in this day and age,staring us in the face,in the 40s no one could deny there were people in real poverty.
Here and now people actually think no one is because they don't know of anyone in it or see them and likely never look for them too.

Waiting for the media to find them and plead their cause,well we would wait for all eternity for that to come about.

It is easy to take the hardline view and judge and condemn,I have had to fight for a good few in real poverty, a house with just enough furniture, no 'luxuries' as to things like TVs,Hifi's.
Everything either given and by the time bills are paid,still a minus as to what is needed every week, and food bought being the absolute cheapest possible and not a lot of it either,devastating to see and heartbreaking to this such people are cast aside in the UK.

The UK in the 21st century doesn't want to admit it has anyone in real poverty,so denies there likely is.
because everyone knows it would be a shocking condemnation of all govt's past and present to still have real poverty in the UK.
So it is just sweep it all under the carpet.
Probably to some a carpet is even seen as a luxury item too.

They are there, they can be found if people look hard enough and what an education it is when anyone sadly comes across its existence too.
The hardline view seems to generally win all the time however,even when it is wildly wrong.

This is however for me the political parties to blame for this, all of them it is something every single one of them should hang thei heads in shame at, since Labour and Conservatives have failed to address even the smallest amount of real poverty in the UK despite them all knowing it does exist.
The whole lot of them should be condemned for their inaction on this and for allowing especially over the last 40 years at least,to just leave it hoping it goes away.

Originally Posted by Kizzy (Post 7723574)

I most certainly 100% agree with that and the paper suggests it's the age of individualism that we live in that is to blame, we don't have the same attitudes to family let alone strangers that are less fortunate.
The fact that subsequent governments and the loss of industry and community has created pockets of extreme socioeconomic deprivation.
It's the attitudinal shift that's the focus of the study, that cannot be denied. It's argued that absolute poverty exists in the same context it was in the 40s in the UK and yet the evidence is there, if some choose not to acknowledge it.

Originally Posted by the truth (Post 7723659)

all child benefit should be paid in vouchers that can only be spent on childrens food and clothes etc this would limit the amount that's wasted and would make people who breed for money think twice and actually plan for a family like working people

Originally Posted by the truth (Post 7723659)

all child benefit should be paid in vouchers that can only be spent on childrens food and clothes etc this would limit the amount that's wasted and would make people who breed for money think twice and actually plan for a family like working people

Originally Posted by Kizzy (Post 7723574)

I most certainly 100% agree with that and the paper suggests it's the age of individualism that we live in that is to blame, we don't have the same attitudes to family let alone strangers that are less fortunate.
The fact that subsequent governments and the loss of industry and community has created pockets of extreme socioeconomic deprivation.
It's the attitudinal shift that's the focus of the study, that cannot be denied. It's argued that absolute poverty exists in the same context it was in the 40s in the UK and yet the evidence is there, if some choose not to acknowledge it.

Originally Posted by the truth (Post 7723659)

all child benefit should be paid in vouchers that can only be spent on childrens food and clothes etc this would limit the amount that's wasted and would make people who breed for money think twice and actually plan for a family like working people

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier (Post 7723754)

Err... Working people get child benefit...

Also, what exactly is "children's food"? Is it different from normal food?? D: I've been feeding my kids regular food! Will they be OK?

Originally Posted by Kazanne (Post 7723766)

I don't choose not to acknowledge it Kizzy,I just have never seen families starving to death here,people are not intergrating as they used to I agree,but I think a lot of that is down to technology,and peoples lack of interest,I really think SOME people do not manage their money properly,or waste it on things that they really could live without.

Originally Posted by joeysteele (Post 7723774)

[/B]

Yes, but Kazanne, sorry there is a 'but' my friend,because I really hate disagreeing wth you at any time.
While doing so however you open up some very strong,valid and important facts as to dealing with money,that are not being addressed by any in power, past or present.

I have come across some horrific sights, a Mother left on her own, the Father gone for ages, she has what I would have termed a pittance to live on, no luxuries, just an old radio.

A lot of these people.like her, never have anyone checking up on them to see how they are, they are left to struggle day after day, week after week.
I thought one was bad enough, when I searched further and found a good number living this way,I was sickened.

These are the minorites that should be splashed all over the front pages to shame all govts; and those who seek power to govern, not the odd one or 2 with 10 children or the odd one that claimed x amount of benefits they shouldn't have.
These would not be news however ,and also the only bit of pride they may have left is their sadly 'isolation' from the rest of society.

Now you do make a fair point, some people are not good with money,it is not that they buy things they shouldn't,with respect that is another overpopularised genralisation, however people do get into difficulties I agree with that wholehearedly.

The problem is again, no officialdom is set up help for them to get 'confidential' advice, places like the CAB are bursting at the seams with loads of issues to deal with,so many slip through and are simple lost in the 'system',as politicians call it.

Universal credit from your govt;(had to get that in:joker:),will have housing benefit paid direct to the claimant, not the landlord.
That is going to cause massive problems I can see, in the future,for as you rightly said, some who maybe are poor in dealing with everyday things.

People with dementia for instance will be getting housing benefit paid direct to them,they then have to ensure they have to pay the landlord.
This govt; shows no responsibility at all as to such people.
The pressures will in some cases then fall on carers,or family who are then made to feel responsible for dealing with same.

I,taking on board your point as to some not managing money, well,then I would actually see that payments for all their essentials like Rent, council tax, water, electricity and gas were paid direct from their benefits.so what they had afterwards was what they knew was theirs to live on.
Sadly it seems this govt;particularly is putting the onus on those who receive 'entitlements' to have to struggle on and cope with all that themselves.
With less and less help being in place.

I agree some people are poor with money,that is a great point, leaving them to get on with things is not an answer however and also the answer is not to give them more, which was already paid direct to the source it was meant for however.
For me, it should be to extend that means, to those who would like it, or need it, to cover the other payments I mentioned above too.

What needs to be set in place are people to help claimants with their money,someone who has a good wage for decades, who then comes out of work,suddenly finds themself on a pittance.
really hard to adjust with the same bills and outgoings to have to do.

For those in absolute poverty,it is soul destroying, however they have come to know no different.
For govts; the good thing is likely these people will not have long lives,it is however still a disgrace,in my view, in the 21st century in the 5th or 6th largest economy in the World, that we have anyone in 'real' poverty at all.
Sadder still is that the vast majority of UK citizens neither think or believe it exists simply because they haven't seen it.

Originally Posted by Kazanne (Post 7723804)

I would never fall out with you Joey simply because you have a different opinion to me,that would be very silly of me,I also know you know far more about politics than me,I guess I have to go by my own experiences,I just see people abusing the system all the time and it's so unfair as peoples greed takes away from the very people who really need help,I don't see how the government can be blamed for that,people will always try and get something for nothing whatever help is put in place,I DO think people should maybe help themselves a bit,I know there must be cases that are genuine and they should get help,but the majority are lazy,devious buggars,LOL,now vote for Dave you know it makes sense:dance:

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier (Post 7723803)

Once again I agree with most of what you have to say Joey. Though I would make the correction that Universal credit won't see a change in terms of rent going straight to claimants, that is already the case with "Local Housing Allowance" and has been for many years (it was that way when I was claiming it which would have been 5 or 6 years ago).

The real chaos I can see universal credit causing is being monthly lump sums rather than weekly. It's great for in-work benefits, with it all coming at the same time as a normal monthly pay cheque, makes it more like a wage top-up which is should be and is far more convenient for people who know how to manage a monthly budget.

However, for people who as you say have no skills with managing money, monthly will be a disaster. People will be broke by the 15th of the month and then getting themselves into serious issues, not eating properly or accumulating debt. It's all very well to say that it'll be their own fault, but real world skills are not taught to youngsters AT ALL in school, it's no surprise that people are bad at it. I've said before that I think there NEEDS to be a mandatory practical skills class introduced at schools for 14+ year olds. Managing a budget, paying bills, understanding and being responsible with credit, etc.

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier (Post 7723822)

As for whether or not poverty exists in this country - it definitely does. Is it relative poverty on a global scale? No, probably not, but in terms of having a liveable existence in this country it is. 5 and a half years ago, we had a newborn, I only had a part time minimum wage job, and we were poor. There's no two ways about it. We were "poor people". My personal rock bottom was walking down the street in the pouring rain, feet soaked through because my shoes had massive holes in them, ripped coat, probably holes in my jeans as well and I could not - literally COULD not - afford to replace any of them. Our daughter was first priority, then rent, bills and food. There was nothing left after that. We don't smoke, we don't drink, we weren't wasting a penny but at the end of any week that's what there was: pennies. Was I starving and dying of AIDS in a war-time country? No... But I challenge anyone to live like that and not consider themselves to be struggling. Financially, emotionally, existentially.

Situation has changed immeasurably since. No debts, a respectable sum in various savings account, and I'm almost disgusted to say that we probably (definitely...) waste more money on frivolities now than we used to have for basics.

I won't ever forget what it was like to live like that though and it's why I would never condemn anyone who is stuck in that situation and I definitely wouldn't shame and embarrass them by forcing them to pay for everything with vouchers.

I'll be brutally honest and say that both me and my wife are competent, intelligent and well educated and so weren't stuck for too long. Some people just aren't so lucky and are genuinely stuck, for decades or forever. I actually genuinely understand why so many end up addicts, actually.

Originally Posted by arista (Post 7723827)

"why so many end up addicts, actually. "


Yes they need Treating , Correcting


Sign Of The Times

Originally Posted by Nedusa (Post 7723740)

I think if you want to carry out a proper comparison of poverty now and in the 1940's you need to compare living standards. If you look back at life for working class and below in those times and compare with today you would be shocked at how little we had back then.

With sometimes huge families they would be housed in small substandard housing sometimes with no bathrooms and outside toilets . To have all the children in shoes would be an achievement in itself.

Ill health , malnutrition were commonplace as was rickets and scurvy, polio and TB.

Holidays were few and far between and pawnbrokers were a way of life.

Working conditions were awful with low pay and terrible conditions leaving people in some industries with chronic conditions like miners lung and asbestosis .

Yet compared to today's world the lower working classes are certainly not in the same situation . Most people have bathrooms and inside toilets , all children are fed some might say considering the access to cheap junk food, rather too well fed. In fact considering the levels of childhood obesity access to food is certainly not a problem.

Also the general health and well being of children has improved vastly with innoculations for most children's diseases and screening program's to assess children's health generally.

We collectively take more holidays home and abroad have far more leisure time and children are not allowed to be exploited for work with legislation regulating the hours Children can work.

So I think because food banks have pricked the public's conscience due to their use as a political tool, we should not be fooled into thinking that as a Nation we have regressed to the poverty levels of the 1940's when clearly we haven't .

Originally Posted by Kazanne (Post 7723804)

I would never fall out with you Joey simply because you have a different opinion to me,that would be very silly of me,I also know you know far more about politics than me,I guess I have to go by my own experiences,I just see people abusing the system all the time and it's so unfair as peoples greed takes away from the very people who really need help,I don't see how the government can be blamed for that,people will always try and get something for nothing whatever help is put in place,I DO think people should maybe help themselves a bit,I know there must be cases that are genuine and they should get help,but the majority are lazy,devious buggars,LOL,now vote for Dave you know it makes sense:dance:

Originally Posted by joeysteele (Post 7723817)

[/B]


With total a full respect for you Kazanne,:joker: never in a million years would I vote for him,never ever, I think he is beyond all trust.

I don't know more about politics than others really, I surprisingly got an eye opener at UNI, when I got involved in many things that took me out of my sort of protected bubble and into others lives of those far less fortunate than myself.
I then found I wanted to really help and learn far more than what was just on the surface.
Something my Grandmother always taught me was never take for granted what those in power say, search out the real answers and things for yourself.

I actually really don't find many people abusing the system really, I have found many people however 'abused' badly by the system.

Originally Posted by Nedusa (Post 7723740)

I think if you want to carry out a proper comparison of poverty now and in the 1940's you need to compare living standards. If you look back at life for working class and below in those times and compare with today you would be shocked at how little we had back then.

With sometimes huge families they would be housed in small substandard housing sometimes with no bathrooms and outside toilets . To have all the children in shoes would be an achievement in itself.


Have you ever been to Blackpool, Jaywick or merthyr?
http://www.theguardian.com/society/s...st-deprived-uk

Ill health , malnutrition were commonplace as was rickets and scurvy, polio and TB.

All of these seemingly eradicated diseases with the exception of polio are on the rise today.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/heal...n-the-war.html

Holidays were few and far between and pawnbrokers were a way of life.

If people are too poor to put electric in the meter it's safe too say they can't afford a holiday.

'When Finch started working for the National Pawnbrokers Association of the UK 22 years ago, there were 70 shops in the country – now there are 2,500.'
(2013)[/B]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/bu...s-8558926.html


Working conditions were awful with low pay and terrible conditions leaving people in some industries with chronic conditions like miners lung and asbestosis .

Advances in health and safe working practices would have accommodated the difficulties associated with heavy industry. Outsourcing was an ultimately more costly solution.

Yet compared to today's world the lower working classes are certainly not in the same situation . Most people have bathrooms and inside toilets , all children are fed some might say considering the access to cheap junk food, rather too well fed. In fact considering the levels of childhood obesity access to food is certainly not a problem.

We are not discussing the world, the only comparison being drawn in the OP is the UK then and now.

Also the general health and well being of children has improved vastly with innoculations for most children's diseases and screening program's to assess children's health generally.

'HISTORICAL EVIDENCE
Similarly, temporal patterns of child health reflect differences in income and material wealth. Over the past 70 years the differences in infant and child mortality between the social classes have been wider during periods when income and material differences were wider, and narrower during periods of greater social equality'

http://adc.bmj.com/content/76/5/463.full

We collectively take more holidays home and abroad have far more leisure time and children are not allowed to be exploited for work with legislation regulating the hours Children can work.

'6. Zero hour contracts
Zero hour contracts are also known as casual contracts. Zero hour contracts are usually for ‘piece work’ or ‘on call’ work, eg interpreters.

This means:

they are on call to work when you need them
you don’t have to give them work
they don’t have to do work when asked'

https://www.gov.uk/contract-types-an...hour-contracts

So I think because food banks have pricked the public's conscience due to their use as a political tool, we should not be fooled into thinking that as a Nation we have regressed to the poverty levels of the 1940's when clearly we haven't .