Drugs to gender change children
 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ing-drugs.html

This story popped up in my Google news feed this morning and I wondered what people thought about children under 16, sometimes under 10 being given puberty halting and gender change hormones. On checking out the story I found a report on the same child from 2015 so he/she is already undergoing treatment.

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-st...-a7933741.html

I also found this story about a boy who changed his mind. In my view a child is too young to decide to have this life changing therapy and doctors seem to be giving it out like candy. How can you be sure at 9 what sex you really want to be, most children because they are children are to a degree gender neutral without the drives and life creating elements that are part of gender, until the hormones kick in at puberty anyway so how can you know you don't want to be a man until you have any experience of it.

What do others think on this issue?

It's hard to imagine how you would feel tbf, if doctors are taking these children seriously after several years of consultation think delaying puberty is warranted instead of dismissing the child and risking them reacting badly to their changes and committing suicide then that is obviously the preferred option.

Doctors don't always know best, there have been some murderous ones that indicate they aren't all saintly and beyond reproach.

I'm not sure why it is thought children will attempt suicide if not given treatment. I don't recall masses of children reported doing that before this therapy was available because they were gender confused.

true, I think we are causing more confusion in young minds by trying to cover every possibility instead of being practical, if a child said they wanted to be an astronaut at 8 would we put them into space ..

There have been some murderous everyone... teachers, plumbers, social workers, police officers. You can't write off medical opinion and current practice and guidelines because of that :/

Who said there were 'masses' but it happens, if one suicide can be prevented by delaying puberty then for me it's worth it. Should the child then reconsider then they simply come off the medication and enter puberty.

Excellent point Cherie. I wanted to be princess but no one sent me to the palace to meet any princes.

As if it's assumed that parents walk into a surgery and walk out with this medication, don't you thing there are behavioral and cognitive therapies explored first?

https://www.theguardian.com/educatio...s-survey-finds

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-identity.html

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/brynn...b_8564834.html

http://www.emeraldinsight.com/doi/ab...J-05-2014-0015

I don't think it's a case of 'wanting' it's that they think they already are a male or female trapped in the wrong body.
I don't know what that's like or how these children feel but most transsexuals say that they always knew even as children, so I don't think going through puberty is a factor in that. Transsexualism isn't about sexual desire so why is going through puberty a necessity in being able to make the decision?
I don't know what the right answer is though and I'm not totally comfortable with the idea of gender-changing hormones, but like I say I don't understand the feelings of it as noone who hasn't gone through it can, but like Kizzy said the people who are best to judge that are the doctors/psychologists who have a better understanding of it and analysis of the specific children in question, so I'm inclined to trust their judgement (I don't think that the fact that some doctors have turned out to be murderers etc should mean they shouldn't be trusted full stop).
The rate of suicide among trans people is shocking and I don't think discomfort/inability to truly understand justifies putting these children at risk. It's weighing up the risk that they might change their mind (I'd be interested to know the rate of this) against putting their lives at risk by denying treatment. With regards to the drugs that delay puberty, they aren't actually being given a sex change, and it allows them time to change their mind, and it makes the process of having a sex change if that's what they end up deciding much easier, so maybe that is the most sensible option.

Also just to add that I disagree that it causes more confusion in young minds. The confusion already exists in the children that this affects and surely that needs addressing. The previous approach of ignoring it hasn't worked and is one of the reasons for such a high suicide rate in my opinion.. For children who aren't affected I don't think it's realistic that they now will be as a result of this.

Puberty-halting pills sound like an excellent idea, there would be very little damage to those who do change their mind, and very little damage to those who do not

Utterly ridiculous post. You were never a princess trapped in a common persons body. Its tragic that you believe this comparison is good enough to dismiss a drug that will bring comfort to several thousands.

Thalidomide was also given out by doctors like candy. Prozac given for mental health problems can make people suicidal. It may be years before we know whether this is 'comfort for thousands' or a dreadful thing to do to children.

Remember we are talking about children here, about altering via medication the natural changes of their bodies before they are developed.

If a boy wants to live as a girl, why he can't he do that without being given drugs to mess with his physical development before he is an adult? Why is this even given on the NHS as healthcare?

I think half the time the parents need to be looked at more

Totally disagree with this, in fact I'd consider it child abuse

I think we also need to remember the reasons why they are doing it as well though, the risk of suicide being the greatest. And also to put in perspective that delaying puberty is just that, it isn't causing any permanent alterations but giving them time which surely is a good thing. All medical treatments go against the nature of our bodies but they exist because they have a purpose and a benefit.

Can I just ask, do you take everything I say literally?

Youre in serious debates and held a serious tone up until that point. What else are you kidding about? Because I think a load of your other points are pretty crap too.

Well thanks, I think yours rather lovely.

Someone else said they thought it was child abuse, and your response to them?

Agreed. Anyway.

Imagine having a kid, who aged 5, knew they were the opposite sex, and any person as a parent denied them this drug because 'they were a child'... and that kid still wanted to be the opposite sex 10 years later, the parent has undoubtedly ruined their life. There would be so much irreversable damage at that point - and for what? Because they were a child, a cant possibly know their gender?

This drug should be the alternative to the parents who are cautious about the rare possibility of a child changing their mind - it wouldnt stop the process, it would slow the process. To deny a girl to stop turning into a boy because they are a child and might be confused, is disturbing.

I think there are a lot of old fashioned views already in this thread, and theres gonna be more to come, but I'm so happy we're living in a world where this drug has been developed to stop children from effectively being forced into living a lie.

Old fashioned views like not wanting to give your 5 year old puberty halting drugs? I'm happy to be old fashioned then :shrug:

There are a lot of 'if's', but yes. I don't think this will be a discussion in a generations time. We're moving past this stage.

I think the idea of a little boy knowing he is a girl, but being forced to turn into a man through puberty will be something the next generation will look on to with confusion, especially now that a drug has been made to temporarily stop puberty from turning said child into a man, but not even necessarily going the other way towards what the child wants.

Its illogical really if you think about it, and is something I'd match with a time well before modern science, medicine and technology.

I hope you're wrong and instead people are given proper counselling to help them accept who they are, not given the emperor's new clothes treatment

Had a conversation with my elderly neibour, she is struggling to accept that one of her grand sons who is 10 I think is living as a girl dresses as a girl goes to school and is accepted as a girl, both parents are doctors, one a paediatrician and the other a psychiatrist.

:clap1: You know you've heard it all when people think it's ok to give children of 5 and up drugs rather than therapy for gender confusion.

Granny might be the wisest member of the family.

Is a pair of jeans, a blue bedroom, and all the counselling in the world really going to help a girl who's gowing an adams apple and a deep voice. She would still be a 50 year old woman who was forced into the boy-man puberty cycle because she was denied the drug to slow that down, even though she knew she wanted this as a child. She will still look down on herself with resentment, and that would be her parents fault more than anything, they have the choice now more than ever.

Imagine what Lauren Harries or Kellie Maloney could look like if they had the male puberty cycle slowed down or stopped.. Forcing kids into a gender just seems so outdated to me.

I know or that it's an old fashioned notion not to think it's a normal way to handle the situation

Well I cant imagine the drug would be beneficial for 5 year olds... that wasnt my point. My point was if a 5 year old knows their gender, but was being forced through a different puberty cycle several years later, even though a perfectly suitable drug exists, the parent has ruined that kids life.

A blue bedroom and a pair of jeans? So your idea of what gender is, is all the stereotypes? That's pretty outdated thinking to me

Ugh no, that wasnt my point either. I was suggesting that these things would not be helpful. That is not what a boy is. Its deeper than that, and counselling isnt going to stop your hormones changing you into something you know you're not.

Why do Lauren Harries or Kellie Maloney's appearances have any bearing on this discussion at all?

Is gender reassignment a beauty contest now? People come in all shapes and sizes, some have physical beauty some don't. What are you saying here?

Are you also saying that parent are to blame if they don't give in to everything a child demands? What if someone's child doesn't like the look of ears and wants them removed at 7?

I'm saying, and I've heard Lauren Harries say this too in some documentary I watched about 10/15 years ago, that some aspects of puberty is irreversible. Lauren may be legally, and technically a woman, but when she still went through the male puberty cycle, she still became something she was not, she can't get rid of her adams apple etc. Girls growing up in boys bodies now have the chance to stop processes like this, forcing them into it simply because they are a child and might be confused is gross.

They are not an earless person in a person-with-ears body. Why do you keep making ****e comparisons, do you even understand the topic?! This is the same as your princess metaphor.

She also can't grow a womb and ovaries. Whether she has medication, surgery or not.

... so she should still be a boy to this point... so she should shut her whining and be happy.. no ovaries = adams apple, its one or the other, thats the rule...

I dont get your point. Seems more transphobic than anything.

First paragraph, you said all that not me.

And here we go with the labels and accusations. I don't agree with you therefore I must be some sort of phobic. Grow up.

Wrong wrong wrong. Even sop called 'harmless' puberty blockers...which are actually chemotherapy drugs.

One day we will look back on this as a child abuse scandal of massive proportions. At the moment though, too many are willing to bury their heads in the sand about it all. So many kids will be harmed by this. Even now there are a fair few kids who want to reverse the damage done to them. Its just ****ing wring and I don't understand how anyone can ever agree with it. Some idiot parents are asking for referrals for their 3 year olds to 'gender clinics' ffs. And transactivists are fighting for 'less gatekeeping'?! Really?!

Like 80% of kids with gender confusion effectively grow out of it, and when they are older most of these simply are gay adults. 'Transing kids' is nothing more than modern day eugenics. How there seems to be widespread support for this I don't know. Let them wear what they like, play with what they like and so on. Using chemo drugs to delay puberty is just bat****. Also, 'reversible' is only technically...as 100% of kids put on blockers move onto cross sex hormones, probably as halting puberty also halts brain development so they get stuck in the same mindset.

I agree with niamh. Its child abuse. On a huge scale. I don't doubt the parents are trying to do whats best for the kids (especially after having distorted suicide stats thrown at them by the likes of 'mermaids' who are meant to HELP families like this) but its all just so ****ing wrong.

I also think come 10-20years time, we will look back on this 'treatment regime' the same way we look back at lobotomies. But the damage will have already been done by then. The side effects of Lupron are horrendous, even when taken short term.

Can you try to discus this without insulting people please?

First paragraph? You think Lauren Harries should still be a man to this point? And I'm not allowed to call that transphobia? Can reiterate, what do you mean by first paragraph?